How Do You Rebuild a Life? - Lance Armstrong

00:00:00: Now what I didn't understand at the time, I muscled my way and willed my way through everything.

00:00:05: I never thought about mental health or that aspect of therapy.

00:00:10: were truly understanding in unpacking these things... ...I did not discover this part until probably six to seven years ago And it has been the most transformative thing i've ever done In terms of a rigorous process That really pushed myself on.

00:00:24: Can you take us into those processes?

00:00:38: So when I was a teenager Sitting, this is August two thousand.

00:00:43: We're talking rainy Cape Town where I grew up.

00:00:47: My parents had a last-ditch desperate attempt to get me to read.

00:00:52: and they got me.

00:00:53: it's not about the bike And It was admittedly probably the first book i ever read cover to cover.

00:01:01: and what happened?

00:01:02: in The worst of all conditions?

00:01:04: I borrowed my mom stockings went out and rode my bike.

00:01:09: the story is a guy who'd beaten cancer with almost no chance of survival went on to dominate the Tour de France seven times.

00:01:18: And yet for me, the book wasn't really about winning.

00:01:21: it was... About what drives someone to push past the limits Of What Most of Us Never Even Dare To Approach.

00:01:28: and that book planted a seed of mental resilience about going places in your head That kind of feel impossible.

00:01:37: Years later The story got few more layers.

00:01:40: The dominance was real, the cancer survival was real.

00:01:44: But so were the choices that led to what I would say cost Lance just about everything titles reputations hundreds of millions of dollars.

00:01:55: and yet here he is still moving building helping old rivals find their next chapter.

00:02:03: today i am proud to say we are talking Armstrong going mental sitting down with a man himself.

00:02:10: Not to rehash what's already been discussed a thousand times, but I want to go a little bit deeper and figure out What it means?

00:02:18: To go all in And whether you can ever stop Lance.

00:02:23: welcome for the show.

00:02:24: Thank You That was good.

00:02:28: last question right there.

00:02:28: I don't know.

00:02:29: I didn't know that.

00:02:31: We'll see if we could figure it out next.

00:02:33: sixty minutes.

00:02:34: yeah um you know The tradition on this show is The guest to define what it means.

00:02:42: To go mental.

00:02:43: when you hear going mental, What does it mean?

00:02:46: Do You at this stage in life

00:02:49: boy I Mean look my life is as really In many ways been defined by some Some form of survival right and if i think back to Not survive me well i guess there was a period obviously where i Was truly fighting for survival.

00:03:13: But I'm fifty-four years old, have had a life of fighting and surviving.

00:03:19: Going back to being born in Dallas Texas to a seventeen year old girl we spent the whole first part our lives together trying to overcome the odds And then of course be diagnosed at twenty five which you alluded.

00:03:41: you're truly there fighting for survival in the sense of life or death.

00:03:49: And then from there, fast forward to two thousand twelve-two thousand thirteen when obviously this story came crashing down as everybody knows.

00:04:04: Then I was put into place a different type of survival and it's also important.

00:04:13: Those first two things that I touched on probably prepared me for the third one.

00:04:19: Yeah, this was in many ways harder than then.

00:04:25: The First Two To Me look at pressure of being diagnosed and really wanting to live.

00:04:34: as a twenty-five year old man is high But has a forty something year old with five children A beautiful wife a family to support, the pressure was even higher.

00:04:47: And so you know... To me going mental it's just trying figure out right?

00:04:52: I think my situation is probably unique and probably extreme but everybody goes through something.

00:05:03: Everybody at some point in their lives has to figure something out.

00:05:08: In many times that seems insurmountable.

00:05:11: And so whether in the games that we play, the tactics we use.

00:05:17: The growth that we try to gain from it is what makes a difference?

00:05:27: There's different ways to define mental and mentality or mental health, mental fitness, mental fortitude are also really fun simple playful ways.

00:05:42: People ask me all the time, do you still ride your bike?

00:05:44: Because they see that I'd at my age like to train and suffer a bit.

00:05:54: So then logical question oh he must be riding.

00:05:56: or how much do you ride?

00:05:57: Or Do You Ride?

00:05:59: And i do ride My Bike and love to ride it as corny As That Sounds.

00:06:06: But The Only Reason I Like To Ride My Bike Now Is Just Get Away.

00:06:11: If there is something going on in my life, whether it's a work-life or just the rest of my life.

00:06:22: There is nothing that will solve it quicker than me going for bike ride by myself.

00:06:28: and I don't need long...I don't needed five six hours to figure all this out.

00:06:33: Give Me two Hours All alone.

00:06:37: To me That's, it is a form of therapy and its mental therapy for me.

00:06:43: And so dude been awhile right?

00:06:49: needless to say

00:06:50: yeah I mean uh i think very You truly have a unique story?

00:06:54: And I think you define that kind of in a way Very few other people do.

00:07:01: but the common element I see Is that To this day you Have movement Getting out there and physical exercise as your therapy.

00:07:10: As you'll go to perhaps it'd be fitting to Go, too.

00:07:18: What I would say is a shared beginning.

00:07:21: You learn to swim Probably Too late To Be A full-time Swimmer.

00:07:27: i Picked Up swimming when i was fifteen because my mom Was Scared i Would dry on off the shores of Cape Town.

00:07:33: And then somehow we found love for this weird sport called triathlon, you know a bunch of kind of weirdos swimming biking and running around the world.

00:07:46: And your champion triathlete.

00:07:49: when I was still in kindergarten You were fifteen i think When you finished six at The President's Triathlon which i mean At the time.

00:07:57: now it doesn't.

00:07:59: It wasn one Of the biggest triathlons In the World.

00:08:01: Some guy Called Mark Allen Greatest of All Time.

00:08:04: Kind of Pats You On Back.

00:08:07: What was it that grabs you about triathlon?

00:08:10: You know, I Well initially what grabbed me is.

00:08:14: Is i had two of the three elements right?

00:08:18: II grew up swimming age group swimming in here In The u.s.

00:08:21: Which is is a serious Version Of Swimming.

00:08:26: I mean in the United States We have Age Group swimming which is what yep Michael Phelps and Katie Ledecky came up through.

00:08:33: And then you have sort of summer league country club swimming, which a lot of kids just go down to the pool in the summer and they'll have a few meets... Yeah!

00:08:41: They're swimming and their racing, which is great.

00:08:44: Age group swimming's very serious.

00:08:45: so I started that when i was twelve and had that at the same time.

00:08:50: I was running track-and-cross country school.

00:08:54: So I figured out two or three.

00:08:57: The only thing I needed was a bike and finally got a bike, first thing that did is start with the kids triathlon called Iron Kids.

00:09:08: That immediately went well.

00:09:10: but you know in reason i decided to actually race for the pros at that president's triathlon in nineteen eighty seven.

00:09:18: it wasn't like.

00:09:18: I knew they could get out of water with front group if your fifteen years old And you're thinking, well I could race with the pros but i'm going to get out of water two minutes behind in first group.

00:09:33: So if that's different so If You Get Out With The First Group Which I Knew That I Could Do and I Did?

00:09:39: Your In The Race!

00:09:40: And I Thought Boy This Is Something Looking Around.

00:09:43: Mark Allen Was There Andrew McNaughton Took Off On The Bike But I Still Hunked Off.

00:09:52: you get to the run and a fifteen-year old legs can't go like Mark Allen can.

00:09:57: But nonetheless, I knew that would be in the race.

00:09:59: so... ...I liked that.

00:10:02: of course looking around at my buddies A lot of brothers so speak In high school they're all working down at fast food place or grocery store.

00:10:17: This is better!

00:10:20: And sport has changed.

00:10:23: It's wild to see the growth of this sport.

00:10:29: Ironman was a thing, right?

00:10:32: There was The Iron Man and that was it!

00:10:36: And most triathlons whether there were two big ones in Chicago they're all over but they weren't Olympic Distance Triathlon as we know them today.

00:10:46: so also very different fun times met lot great people.

00:10:53: I got to travel the world as a fifteen-year old.

00:10:58: Not, not...I wouldn't say all over the world but certainly South America All over North America Parts of the Caribbean and I mean look i watch this kind of fun thing to think about.

00:11:12: I have a sixteen year old son When I was fifteen And of course we're watching everything that's going on here in United States This stuff with Venezuela.

00:11:22: When I was fifteen, I went to Venezuela all alone.

00:11:26: Without a computer without a cell phone and my mom drove me.

00:11:29: the airport said alright good luck.

00:11:34: So often times sit around like what happened?

00:11:36: What would happen right if my sixteen year old son Rolled up tonight say hey dad i think im gonna cruise down to venezuela tomorrow But Im going leave myself home?

00:11:46: Yeah probably won't have any way to communicate but it's okay Stopping from going.

00:11:54: so it was like my mom.

00:11:56: Was she?

00:11:57: She was an amazing supporter.

00:12:00: She trusted me and You know, I just I didn't know any better as went did those things.

00:12:07: Yeah you kind of figured out along the way right now And i think this very often Like there's a parent how nowadays i see So much over parenting offline But no one cares what the kids do online.

00:12:18: you've got to phone you've Got all these kinds Of Things but i Think that's A different Topic all together.

00:12:24: I just found an interview of yours back in the day, and you basically came out and said i will be The best triathlete in the world In five years time.

00:12:38: There's a look into your mindset.

00:12:39: I totally love it.

00:12:40: national champion at eighteen and nineteen You had the talent to probably go All the way in a sport that like you said It has some traction.

00:12:50: there was the Ironman And correct me if I'm wrong late eighties early nineties.

00:12:55: I'm imagining Texas cycling tight clothing that i can't see it being a thing.

00:13:01: That was the other thing It was.

00:13:03: did

00:13:03: you see yourself like winning?

00:13:04: The tour Was at the Olympics where he just following your strongest discipline.

00:13:08: no, I was.

00:13:09: look Well, you're right cycling was.

00:13:13: there was a scene as There would have been seen and most I was living in Dallas.

00:13:20: But like most big cities, you had one of the prominent shops that had weekend rides.

00:13:26: Probably had a weekday race... Yeah he had good turnout right?

00:13:30: So I would show up for those.

00:13:32: Look at- The thing that really changes this whole story is A kid who always had dream about being an Olympian.

00:13:43: Here we are in late eighties Triathlon is perfectly logical an obvious Olympic sport.

00:13:52: So you're thinking, well... You combine three of the most iconic olympic sports into one.

00:13:57: this is an olympics sport and they just couldn't get it together as people know was not an olympic sport until two thousand but I always wanted to be in Olympia And i had this opportunity.

00:14:11: I was invited upto the OLYMPIC TRAINING CENTER TO train with the cycling team audition or have a chance to be selected for the Junior World Championships in cycling.

00:14:24: In nineteen eighty nine, which was Which that year was then Moscow and this is before The Wall came down And I thought boy This Is?

00:14:34: I'm gonna try this.

00:14:35: so i actually drove up there from Dallas Ended Up making That Team going into the Worlds Uh, into cycling and then went to the Olympics.

00:14:51: Went to the olympics in ninety two so fulfilled that dream.

00:14:55: Yeah yeah really I had no idea.

00:14:57: i didn't actually realize That was The dream that got me there because for Me that Was my dream as well?

00:15:02: I met uh A south african guy with a name of conrad stoltz while i was a lifeguard on the beach And he was the first ever Guy i knew Personally that it gone or was going To the olympics at that stage and i was like yes if this guy can do It just made it feel So much more relatable.

00:15:19: Yeah, going back to you taking over cycling as a cyclist.

00:15:24: You were known to dig into the details and find that level of perfectionism.

00:15:31: is that something that he took from your early years?

00:15:33: And was it maybe if you really take in control over many flying pieces that you had any life at the time?

00:15:42: I don't think because i wasn't that detail or oriented when I was young diagnosis in a way, really leveled me up.

00:15:53: I became obsessed with the details and those details are initially your treatment options making hard...I had to make very hard decisions on.

00:16:06: where i chose to be treated was an Austin at that time and Austin in nineteen.

00:16:13: ninety six is not same as Austin twenty-twenty six.

00:16:15: it's different Can

00:16:18: imagine.

00:16:19: Yeah, very different.

00:16:21: If this all happened over I would have stayed in Austin.

00:16:24: We had a great medical school.

00:16:25: now we've got great doctors Great care But but in ninety six it was college town and government And there's nothing.

00:16:34: So i just looked long and hard For my best options.

00:16:40: Houston and MD Anderson was one.

00:16:42: Then Indiana University Was the other and ultimately chose that.

00:16:47: But so it was just there you're starting to, I always think of everything in sort-of sports terms.

00:17:04: how I could monitor that.

00:17:20: In other words, where is the scoreboard?

00:17:22: Where's the stopwatch?

00:17:24: What am i looking at

00:17:25: here?".

00:17:26: So...I was just fully involved with tumor markers chest x-rays all of this stuff.

00:17:32: doctors would look and said no..no..no....i want to see them too.

00:17:35: And so it learned or maybe I was forced learn a level detail but never had before in my life spent a ton of time thinking about this, but that's probably the thing.

00:17:51: That as I you know ultimately finished treatment and then realized i was going to live again and move back into cycling.

00:17:58: uh it was that level of detail And also selection of team and people around me that-that I learned from The disease?

00:18:10: I mean there are so many things to unpack There and I definitely want To get in your mindset Of building that Team questioning having the clarity to actually question where you went with all of that.

00:18:25: But I do just want to finish off on them, onto justice.

00:18:28: sporting kind of chronological part of our conversation.

00:18:31: were You go through an incredible cycling career?

00:18:36: You see the world.

00:18:38: you dominate The World I mean for a while there.

00:18:40: it's bigger news if you lose a race than If your.

00:18:42: then You decided to come back to triathlon after cycling.

00:18:50: Twenty-eleven, twenty-twelve for you.

00:18:53: was that confrontation or liberation?

00:18:57: No it was.

00:18:58: look I uh... Look i still love the sport of triathlon and even if you just take That sport out of it those three individual sports..I love!

00:19:12: I still loved a swim and I still love to run.

00:19:16: And so, uh... To me it was you know..I didn't have any-and of course the sport had changed right?

00:19:23: There were Ironman.

00:19:24: there's no way I was gonna.

00:19:26: international distance Olympic Distance Triathlons are now different types events.

00:19:31: It doesn't matter at the peak my fitness At the peak of athletic ability i never could've won an olympic triathlon!

00:19:38: I can't run that fast just cant'run that fast period.

00:19:42: End of discussion.

00:19:45: But now Iron Man had become this thing, right?

00:19:48: And not just full Iron Mans but half Iron Mans.

00:19:50: I thought well and then of course look a lot of commercial interests there.

00:19:57: Nike who really is... You touched on Mark Allen was go back in the day.

00:20:05: that was early days of Nike.

00:20:10: In my opinion it's integral to growth.

00:20:12: And so they were interested, Trek was interested.

00:20:15: There are plenty of people that I also just loved the training and wanted to stay fit.

00:20:22: So there wasn't obviously an ending for this story.

00:20:30: actually have a view on it but its probably best if there isn't any ending.

00:20:34: Take

00:20:36: me into that.

00:20:38: What's the story?

00:20:39: The story is going back to triathlon.

00:20:44: He's gonna do these series of half Ironmans to qualify for an ironman?

00:20:51: or?

00:20:52: But the next step was I was And actually when everything went down.

00:20:55: I was in France, I was just about to do it Was days away from doing Iron Man France a full-iron man which is a perfect Course for me.

00:21:04: It's a tough bike course and a flat run.

00:21:06: Oh, man my last ever race.

00:21:07: God that cross is brutal

00:21:09: yeah and technical.

00:21:11: A technical by course that i would have excelled on open water swim, things that it checked all the boxes.

00:21:21: But this is not so easy.

00:21:23: and I found out really quickly that triathlon as had evolved wasn't just a three-discipline sport.

00:21:34: It was four discipline sports And fourth discipline was nutrition.

00:21:39: So it took me race after race.

00:21:41: I couldn't figure it out until i finally did, and the solution for that was just less.

00:21:50: Right?

00:21:51: I was working off this... The math in my head that I need to consume calories and energy.

00:21:58: That wasn't working for me.

00:21:59: so when I just did nothing then it finally worked.

00:22:01: nonetheless This would have all culminated In Kona with me curled up on the side of the road not knowing what to do to manage the fourth discipline, for sure.

00:22:18: And so there are plenty of days... Most days where I say boy i'm glad that didn't work out.

00:22:27: it would have been all this hope All this hype and expectation.

00:22:30: It started great!

00:22:32: Would've come in front group.

00:22:34: Yeah I'd be great on a bike

00:22:40: Yeah, but that race.

00:22:41: That year was one with a three oh five marathon and you were picking up some pace And I tell you what?

00:22:46: I don't think the likes of who was it?

00:22:49: Craig Alexander?

00:22:50: There was Chris McCormack Luke Bentley are those guys.

00:22:53: I Don't think they will quite as confident that you're going to be curled up on this side.

00:22:56: The road is well

00:22:58: we don't know.

00:22:58: i mean outlook guy

00:22:59: exactly.

00:23:01: That's right.

00:23:01: That's why they have the event all right so We can find out.

00:23:05: But didn't happen.

00:23:10: Here we are.

00:23:11: I was excited for France, but that's That there is a lot going on.

00:23:16: and then I was literally There.

00:23:19: i Was in france?

00:23:21: And when When i realized i need to start packing my bags and fly home

00:23:27: yeah thats uh That's quite something.

00:23:30: i mean what does What Is Something?

00:23:36: What Does Winning Mean To land some strong look?

00:23:40: winning is.

00:23:44: I don't have a Maybe even still to this day.

00:23:49: And this is.

00:23:50: I spend a lot of time trying to Understand and unpack Many parts of my life, and in my relationship too to winning.

00:24:02: Is it's still one of them?

00:24:04: because When i think back to Those seven tours yes I want all those tours.

00:24:13: But in my mind, the whole time i'm thinking just don't lose.

00:24:19: So then it's a conversation of what are we doing here?

00:24:24: Are trying to win and be over-the-moon ecstatic emotional disbelief that you won or pure joy Or are you going fuck?

00:24:38: thank god I didn't loose Because I hate, I hated losing and I hate losing to this day.

00:24:46: And so then you say well where does that come from?

00:24:51: Does that come form...I have theories again just a constant body of work me trying understand these things.

00:25:00: but when your sick or diagnosed in fighting for life comparing everything with sports match looking at scoreboard winning the survival And losing his death, right?

00:25:14: So it doesn't come from that.

00:25:17: But if I look back to those seven years and coming into Paris Seven years in a row.

00:25:23: I Was just ready to go home like there was no part of me It's like fuck yeah Let's get out here let's let's pop some champagne.

00:25:30: Let's see a bunch of people what's?

00:25:32: no?

00:25:32: No, I was like hey man i did my job Yeah, and I ran this process.

00:25:38: That uh...that I loved.

00:25:41: And we could talk more about process because to me, process is everything.

00:25:45: Um but that's what I loved the most.

00:25:47: and-and i would have done that for free The racing idea did as a job and they wanted me to win in... So I did so.

00:25:57: But looking back on it..I don't think thats healthy To not accomplish something like that and just stand there be like

00:26:06: Wow!

00:26:08: I did this.

00:26:08: Uh and so thats a shame Honestly, but hey life's messy.

00:26:17: and And we move on.

00:26:20: As I said try to unpack and figure these things out.

00:26:23: it sir recently late of the party finished Andrea Gassi's autobiography and The sentence that stood out To me was winning is never as much joy as losing his pain

00:26:38: right?

00:26:40: Yeah I mean, I think that's right.

00:26:44: You know the didn't read that book entirely unlike you hadn't read a ton of these books but But the parts of it were because I grew up a huge.

00:26:54: Of course we were in Europe at the same time and winning European events.

00:26:59: this is the same Time he and I?

00:27:02: Um-but This idea or what he wrote that he really hate i hate tennis said I hated tennis.

00:27:08: Yeah That's very different.

00:27:10: like I loved Cycling and I still to this day love it now Did did I prefer training in the Alps than the Pyrenees?

00:27:18: In June all alone when there was nobody There versus July where there were a million people.

00:27:23: They're of course Like that, was like wow This is awesome.

00:27:27: look at us.

00:27:28: i got this all on myself And I'm running this process and you get to the race.

00:27:33: You're like, wow who put all these people here?

00:27:35: That's different but it-

00:27:36: You did!

00:27:37: Yeah we did.

00:27:39: there were a lot of great characters in that generation But um...I still loved..and even within The Race I loved really love.

00:27:51: if theres anything i miss I missed training , I missed the process and I missed camaraderie The hours days weeks of time with those guys.

00:28:02: And I mean the real guys, right?

00:28:04: The real...the real warriors who and if?

00:28:07: i have many regrets but it's just such a shame that the true characters in this story has almost been overshadowed unfortunately and im talking about George Hinkapy Vechislav Ekimov, Chechirubierre, Tricky Beltran, Pavel Padronos.

00:28:29: I mean, these guys that were there day in and out.

00:28:33: And the vibe we had within our team whether it's a team bus or dinner table... Fuck man!

00:28:40: We would show up every day on the bus.

00:28:41: I'd crack the window saying look at this motherfuckers.

00:28:46: I said we're taking them all down today boys.

00:28:49: Yeah.

00:28:50: These guys are like.. I grew up in America.

00:28:55: That is why they talk locker rooms Right me watch if you're a fan.

00:28:59: I'm gonna love football So I'm a fan.

00:29:01: and then I fell teams down twenty at halftime.

00:29:03: You got guarantee what the coach is saying Guarantee, what he's saying in the locker room where nobody's listening.

00:29:10: He said boys we're going to roll out here on the second half And we were going to fucking destroy these guys.

00:29:15: That's what we're gonna do.

00:29:17: He has to say that.

00:29:19: so i grew up loving these sports and appreciating that sort of.

00:29:24: Call it What?

00:29:24: Do will call it trash talk called camaraderie call it brotherhood Um, but these guys didn't grow up with that.

00:29:32: So they would be like what?

00:29:36: But-but they believed.

00:29:38: They believed and so it was in.

00:29:41: we had... It was such a magical time And I still love those uh Those guys so deeply.

00:29:49: i mean they're just amazing.

00:29:50: every one of them The ones I mentioned are just incredible.

00:29:54: We were incredible teammates

00:29:57: swearing your team in and I would say making it personal, right?

00:30:03: Making it

00:30:04: about

00:30:05: one person.

00:30:06: About the other team... All of them!

00:30:08: ...about whoever was Ulrich Basso or

00:30:11: whoever he is.

00:30:11: Yeah we made him.

00:30:14: I wanted to hate all of them.

00:30:17: Is that part of you process ?

00:30:18: It's

00:30:18: a part of my process at this time.

00:30:22: And look i sit here now at fifty four years old these people that I sort of manufactured rivalries with, Jan Ulrich being the best example.

00:30:37: But in even another... Here's a great example!

00:30:40: Those years Jan had by his side every year.

00:30:45: Andreas Kloden.

00:30:48: Yeah and I hated Andreas Klodin so much.

00:30:57: And then fast forward to whatever, I don't know, in the year of two thousand nine.

00:31:03: And guess who's on the team with me?

00:31:05: In two thousand and nine.

00:31:07: Cloddy.

00:31:07: Andreas Cloden.

00:31:09: Let me tell you something it took me about thirty seconds To fall in love with him...I was like-and i told him!

00:31:18: I mean..to my defense.

00:31:20: I said You know

00:31:21: what?!

00:31:22: I fucking hated you forever But I was wrong Like he is another one Just this guy.

00:31:30: So it was, we would make the... And Yan obviously is who I've become incredibly close to and been on just a while journey with.

00:31:45: Everything in every fiber of my being wanted to beat him.

00:31:53: It's just been such an interesting Timeline and experience with these guys, but yeah we used that.

00:32:04: And look Johan to Johan Brunel who was really the architect of everything shared That attitude in that style and he also too had He also had Clody on the team is like wow this guy's an amazing teammate.

00:32:24: So you know Yeah, whoops.

00:32:27: But that's sports.

00:32:28: I mean...I would have hoped they were talking shit about me too.

00:32:33: Honestly like I think Jordan kind of pointed it out in his documentary.

00:32:37: you know how he did.

00:32:38: You decide to take things personal.

00:32:39: yeah Decide To Take The Avenue Of Whatever They Said And Twisted In A Way That Kind Of Fires You Up.

00:32:48: Do You Think It Is Part Of The Champions Mindset?

00:32:50: To Have Like That Jekyll and Hyde Personality Course!

00:32:52: That

00:32:53: Your Kind Of In There Not Allowing?

00:32:56: Yeah, I think all the best have that.

00:32:59: I don't think there's a lot of nice guys at the top but i don't... I mean look even in the sport to try?

00:33:11: Think back to the rivalry of Dave Scott and Mark Allen.

00:33:16: Imagine they were making up about each other.

00:33:19: This is mark comes off as portrays this sort of Zen Buddha.

00:33:23: master-I got it

00:33:24: now!

00:33:26: And then was some.

00:33:26: Let me tell you something, Mark Allen wanted to rip people's legs off.

00:33:32: That's not very Zen Buddha but and he did yeah And so look It can also go to extremes and I'll be the first to admit that...that i took it to an extreme.

00:33:44: and So uh..I paid for that and um worked on the bike But didn't work off-the-bike.

00:33:52: And you know, yeah try to move on so speak.

00:34:05: Yeah I mean it's kind of what i find so remarkable is like You have this rivalry with Jan Orik?

00:34:15: had a similar thing if I could compare with Alistair Brownlee who was two-time Olympic champion and He absolutely, like he literally destroyed me when he came onto the scene.

00:34:26: He was just this cocky brash British kid and he Just absolutely destroyed me in.

00:34:31: afterwards we sat down for the first ever chat on this episode And he's like Yeah man.

00:34:36: For me it Was just about odds Like I was just trying to increase The odds and you were part of the odds?

00:34:42: That was It!

00:34:44: By the way do You want To go and ride a mountain bike race around South Africa for A week together?

00:34:49: Amazing You move On In the same Way that Yeah, the same way that you're going and now helping Jan move along.

00:34:57: You're helping Bradley Wiggins move along giving them a lease of life.

00:35:02: It's that messy humanist you kind-of speak to right?

00:35:10: For me there is I think more especially with Jan.

00:35:17: I never hesitated.

00:35:23: Look, look...I like to help people when I can't and not a total monster or machine And he needed help.

00:35:34: He made me the rider that was day in-day out Not just on the race but always worried about John Ulrich Furthermore..he is only one that i was worried about Really?

00:35:46: No But none of these guys scared me None of them.

00:35:52: What was it about Jan that made him so

00:35:54: special?

00:35:55: Well, I mean Jan is there's a tremendous talent.

00:35:58: He could do everything he can climb.

00:35:59: you get time trial.

00:36:02: You had a good team around them But just impure Talent.

00:36:08: he was far more talented than any of the others

00:36:13: and you think he just

00:36:14: well, I Mean he could.

00:36:18: you should have been on the show.

00:36:19: he can speak to this better then.

00:36:21: really anybody Jan's had a wild life and Yeah, it is not wired the same as most people.

00:36:31: Yon's very simple It's very very simple And he's also very sweet.

00:36:38: I am NOT simple and i'm not sweet yeah...and so we're just Very very different an-an.

00:36:45: As I've come to know him So well over The last really decade There are parts of me that there are Parts Of Me and I have told them this.

00:36:55: In getting to know him I didn't need to worry.

00:36:58: Yes, he had the physical talent but this was we were wired differently But that's neither here nor there.

00:37:05: i was worried and he motivated me and scared Me and inspired me.

00:37:10: And uh?

00:37:11: Any any also went through a very similar Fall from grace yeah, and this is what really really motivated me to help him.

00:37:30: I can't tolerate it when a hero like him is just destroyed in his home country and all over the world, And meanwhile others get passes.

00:37:44: That's very hard.

00:37:44: It's unbelievably hard on them.

00:37:46: so he'd be hard on anybody but its much harder on him.

00:37:54: You know, fortunately he's sitting here today.

00:37:57: It's funny.

00:37:57: right before I came on... ...I got a WhatsApp from his manager and there are some events.

00:38:03: so He is just look it's one foot in front of the other as we see her today.

00:38:14: healthy which all matters.

00:38:17: Yeah, I met him on a bike ride in the summer actually On Mallorca.

00:38:21: Him and his manager who make this incredibly funny duo.

00:38:26: But yeah it's

00:38:27: about Mike Bollinger.

00:38:29: This guy is so lovely

00:38:32: He is but they just made this almost comical duo right?

00:38:36: Like you're sitting at dinner table And the stories that come up

00:38:39: Mike has full gas and he's lovely.

00:38:47: You know, athletes oftentimes have people around them that really don't.

00:38:51: Have the athletes or the person's best interests at heart might?

00:38:54: Mike Baldinger cares deeply about Jan and just wants the best for him.

00:38:58: He doesn't.

00:38:59: That's it.

00:39:00: And so I love Love Mike.

00:39:04: Yeah, think they're fully invested.

00:39:06: if like If i compare The two of you look At you side-by-side do you know?

00:39:11: Do you know the sport of ski jumping here where they have this massive?

00:39:15: Well, I've

00:39:17: seen it on TV.

00:39:21: Yeah was that actually a year ago?

00:39:24: It's had gave us speech in Slovenia of all places at the At The ski jumping world championships and so I got there.

00:39:31: you go Yes stand there And i'm looking at this thing going okay No way dude nuts no way

00:39:41: There is no Way.

00:39:42: but You know why it reminds me Of you Is because these guys need a headwind to fly.

00:39:49: They needed anything with wing and yeah, airplanes have to.

00:39:54: you have to take off into the wind half two

00:39:57: hundred percent.

00:39:58: And like symbolically speaking I feel Like You Almost Need A Headwind To Thrive.

00:40:04: You Are Somebody Head First Through The Wall.

00:40:08: Do You Think That Leads You To A Process Of risk-taking of resilience, or persistence that someone like Jan could never face?

00:40:25: Or most people for that matter.

00:40:29: Yeah I mean...I said it at the top when i touched on sort of first phase in my life where My mom had me a young age.

00:40:43: we were fighting and I was fighting before even knew I was fighting, right?

00:40:49: My mom was sixteen when she got pregnant.

00:40:54: Seventeen when she had me and so you can imagine a sixteen-year old girl in Dallas Texas in nineteen seventy what everybody around her were saying And that for her Was a fight Right!

00:41:10: Also very traumatic.

00:41:12: We could talk about sports international sporting glory, we can talk about all these things.

00:41:19: It sounds so cool and glamorous an iconic and sexy And when it doesn't go right?

00:41:25: Um in people fall from grace like myself like John.

00:41:31: There's also a ton of trauma associated with that.

00:41:34: yeah, and and that's effect Right and so.

00:41:38: But my mom was dealing with that as she was pregnant and So I am absorbing that right and so we are learning to fight.

00:41:48: Hey, we're gonna prove my... So no-no-no I'm having this job!

00:41:51: I don't care what anybody says.

00:41:53: i'm going to prove you wrong.

00:41:55: and so I am absorbing this whether it's in the womb or as a little boy.

00:41:59: uh ...and yeah..I was raised as a fighter.

00:42:04: um now I'm fifty four years old now And I understand What You Just Said In The Reference Or The Analogy Or The Idea Of Headwind.

00:42:16: Yeah, I like a good fight every now and again.

00:42:18: You also too get to my age And you're also really comfortable with.

00:42:22: some was some crosswind maybe even an occasional tail wind But but for sure nothing.

00:42:29: nothing gets me riled up as much is it's a good flight?

00:42:32: but But what do you get older?

00:42:36: Do you know you don't have the same endurance in the same energy that you once had and In my days of really truly fighting are done, right?

00:42:47: And I'm happy about that.

00:42:54: I don't...I'm glad i made the choices that I made you know uh thirteen years ago and that's when I really had to figure out a way how to survive and provide.

00:43:09: The most important thing for me in all of this was How do This is all I care about in life, it's my family.

00:43:19: And so I had to say look...I am done and finished.

00:43:24: the world that I was in this cancel culture America has gone through as one of the first.

00:43:39: So then you said how can we feed our families?

00:43:42: That's what I cared for!

00:43:48: There's different tools that people can use.

00:43:52: And my toolkit has changed over the years, certainly changed but early on.

00:43:58: I mean... The number one thing in that tool kit going back to day after I did an interview and the world said okay yesterday you were a hero today your is zero!

00:44:14: I am going to maintain my health.

00:44:19: Mm-hmm, I'm not gonna get addicted to anything.

00:44:22: i'm Not Gonna curl up in the corner and cry?

00:44:25: I Am Going To move And I'm Not gonna let My Health slip And and and I'm sorry.

00:44:33: well that's another story.

00:44:34: but And I'M talking about physical health.

00:44:39: yeah

00:44:40: now what I didn't understand at The time because That was never a big I muscled my way and willed through everything.

00:45:16: And so

00:45:16: can you take us into that process?

00:45:18: Would would you mind?

00:45:19: yeah,

00:45:20: I mean look yeah.

00:45:20: Yeah of course absolutely um I'm gonna talk about it all the time.

00:45:26: So i am a big fan Of Some form of Therapy and there are different forms.

00:45:36: right There is sort of this stuff That we all know.

00:45:38: most people Know where You've got a therapist.

00:45:41: you go see them Whatever It Is Once a week or once a month, and you sit on the couch.

00:45:47: And you can hash some stuff out which is great in many ways.

00:45:53: those are but those are band-aids.

00:45:58: But there's also different form of therapy that's more like surgery.

00:46:03: So thats what I elected to do fully intensive five day sessions one-on-one ten hours per day unpacking everything

00:46:15: Just talking.

00:46:15: or

00:46:16: well, there's you.

00:46:18: You're doing a lot of talking.

00:46:19: There's different tools and modalities in methods And some of it seems almost almost corny.

00:46:27: I mean, there is role-playing there's dress up.

00:46:30: There's drawing there's journaling And then there's more scientific stuff.

00:46:35: I really resonated.

00:46:36: that was another method called brain spotting Which really resonated with me?

00:46:42: And helped me push through a lot things.

00:46:44: But it's hard to sit with somebody no matter how much you trust them.

00:46:48: And I really, really trusted my sort of guru on this his name is Mark Pemsler To guide me through this.

00:46:56: and so i told him...I knew that This goes forever.

00:47:01: anybody listening?

00:47:02: That if No matter what It Is whether You're Sitting On The Couch Once A Month Or Your Gonna Go Somewhere For Five Days or Thirty days..It Doesn't Work If You Don'T Surrender.

00:47:15: If you don't surrender, it will not work.

00:47:21: and I surrendered.

00:47:22: I surrendered to this process.

00:47:25: And how did he get there?

00:47:26: You know i got there because here's... Here is..I'll tell exactly How I got There and just alluded To It My whole life.

00:47:34: so now um So probably started on This at forty seven Forty Eight Years old for that Whole forty Seven years.

00:47:46: I knew That I had Muscles knew that I had lungs.

00:47:49: I knew that i had will and grit.

00:47:54: those were my energy systems.

00:47:56: Those stopped working, I Had to find a new energy system.

00:48:01: And so mine That energy system as I had imagined it in I think To be right is Is A heart?

00:48:09: It's a soul and its central nervous System if you can't identify those Energy Systems In those muscles.

00:48:16: those are also Muscles and you can't access those, it would have been like prison.

00:48:25: But on every level as a husband?

00:48:28: As a father?

00:48:30: As the teammate?

00:48:31: As member of society I just needed help And i was crying for help.

00:48:38: In other words...I surrender Now Jan My whole sporting career.

00:48:48: If somebody were to say Gosh Lance, why don't you just surrender?

00:48:52: I would have said are you fucking out of your mind?

00:48:54: That's one word.

00:48:56: I will never say so.

00:48:57: it was.

00:48:58: it was empowering for me to say You know what I need help and It's not the reason I love talking about.

00:49:05: it is because you knows And i think this Is Not that it has a stigma but I Think some Of This Has Faded.

00:49:10: People See That They Need Help and And Help Is There.

00:49:16: So If I Can Do It than anybody can do it, because I'm the most hard-headed stubborn non-surrender person probably ever or one of.

00:49:27: And and i just said...I need more help

00:49:30: here.".

00:49:31: And I found the right person ...and I completely committed myself.

00:49:36: My first experience mark was at a an amazing facility outside in Nashville called OnSite.

00:49:44: Yeah!

00:49:46: It worked for me and I was scared as hell.

00:49:51: I'm so scared, and nervous... And now I crave it!

00:50:01: I talk to Mark all the time and that's probably been a year-and-a-half since he and I have done session together in there is big parts of me like boy just tune up Just give me few days with mark but can be anybody?

00:50:17: Right, you got to obviously know them and trust them.

00:50:20: And commit to the process.

00:50:22: um...and trust the process but it was transformative.

00:50:28: I find going through this episode in preparing just touching up on a few of things.

00:50:35: listening i did actually wonder whether Going mental In the sense of finding that courage Finding The strength To flick the switch for you would be in the quiet, In the silence.

00:50:53: Cause I totally noticed like...I am addicted to sports and get genuinely have an addiction.

00:50:58: if i don't do any exercise by five p.m.. I fall off a cliff And now realize that it's right.

00:51:05: You go into

00:51:05: a dark

00:51:05: place.

00:51:06: your wife is like honey.

00:51:08: Could you please just got out of the garage?

00:51:10: Do some push-ups Ride your ride your Zwift Just do anything.

00:51:17: Yeah, the thing is my wife and I share this addiction.

00:51:19: So we kind of know you know?

00:51:20: This is our Snickers moment when your not quite feeling the same just go out And We Kind Of Know How To Take It.

00:51:25: But yeah Do You Ever Other Than With Mark?

00:51:30: Actually Sit Still i mean Say Your Going Out On A Bike Ride but that's Not Sitting Still.

00:51:35: Well Look I Think That'S One Of The Keys to And By No Means a Black Belt When it Comes To This.

00:51:46: I understand that i have a central nervous system and I understand what it needs rest.

00:51:53: And so if there has been one change in me, well there's been several significant changes first and foremost in an around alcohol.

00:52:05: um That is just being wild incredibly transformative as well.

00:52:11: but There are times where...I love to be alone.

00:52:17: I don't know if that's weird, If it is strong.

00:52:20: I love to be alone and there are times... You can see but i'm sitting at my desk in the office And straight across from me Is a couch.

00:52:32: There're two chairs right here.

00:52:34: The door is shut Maybe other people in this office.

00:52:38: But I just get up and go sit Just sit alone.

00:52:42: Not look on my computer.

00:52:46: I never knew that, that I had that reset.

00:52:48: But now i do.

00:52:52: and yes you get on a bike ride all by yourself but there's other energy right?

00:52:57: You're trying to see where we are going... But im very comfortable just sitting alone And in fact There were times Where you'd just crave it like I need to be alone Right Now In some sort of re-chart.

00:53:13: Let me plug this thing And just rest for a sec.

00:53:20: Yeah, and in the beginning right you've done most grueling bike race in the world.

00:53:24: You've gone through all these kind of things but you realize like that's its very own kind of heart Like just sitting down and not distracting yourself Just allowing to be honest I really

00:53:37: Well...I love it now!

00:53:41: It might have been different In the two thousands

00:53:46: Yeah, but that's all right.

00:53:46: I mean you develop and that's kind of the story.

00:53:49: You're right And that's that probably also gets to the point.

00:53:51: so i was listening too To will smith in an interview how we were saying?

00:53:56: He's kind if he finds this Zen Buddhist way and he's got All these kinds of mechanisms and like dude there is no Way you've got where are being zen and buddhist Like?

00:54:05: We'll go through our phase then same as mark allen.

00:54:09: I don't think Dave Scott has quite found it yet.

00:54:13: Lance, before I let you go it would be a miss of me to not touch on You as a risk taker like.

00:54:22: it really fascinates.

00:54:23: It's me how?

00:54:25: How throughout your career you've leaned into risk when other people were just really roll up in a fetal position and Just crawl up?

00:54:35: And is that because you think gotten this perspective.

00:54:40: How you said, let's call them tough conditions having cancer as a life perspective but I mean who goes and negotiates their cancer treatment?

00:54:56: Who does that?

00:55:07: I based that decision just on... And this was even, you know.

00:55:16: I was twenty-five years old and didn't really recognize or didn't want to recognize or listen any sort of voice within but we all have this voice with them.

00:55:29: That is another thing.

00:55:30: i've gotten so good at listening too.

00:55:36: And so, but I was in Houston and I just said boy this doesn't feel right.

00:55:43: Then flew to Indiana and met with the team there and thought that feels better because it's more like home But its a hunch It is a vibe Its voice inside.

00:55:57: however you want to think about or describe it Look!

00:56:04: I've ignored that voice many, many times in my life on many levels not just a sporting level and A doping level or denial level Other times.

00:56:20: And it never works right?

00:56:23: So I think to me the most when i touched this...I mean..and wasn't a raging alcoholic but But I just kept hearing this voice.

00:56:36: In fact, it wasn't an alcoholic at all.

00:56:37: It's just drank a lot but there was and we were entertainers And We would have fun had friends over.

00:56:46: My older kids got older so they Would always drink wine.

00:56:50: you know what i'm saying?

00:56:50: I mean it Was Just Fun.

00:56:51: yeah Yeah, it was social but it Got to This Point where the Voice Just Kept Getting Louder and Louder.

00:56:56: now as Like You Know Holy Shit When I and I Touched on This The Years So Go when I went Through One Year that the voice is a whisper, starts as a whisper and then it's just a conversation.

00:57:11: And then its'a

00:57:12: scream.".

00:57:14: Sometimes It takes That!

00:57:16: Finally listen to that Scream.

00:57:19: Those are really The two if I look back over the last seven or eight years and I would love numbers...I Love Data..I Love Charts....I Love Results.

00:57:30: But If i Just Imagine my life and just sort of, if I was a spectator in watching.

00:57:35: Wow!

00:57:36: From the outside going what?

00:57:37: What happened

00:57:38: there?".

00:57:40: And...and what happened THERE?

00:57:42: because something in his life changed.

00:57:47: you can see that first trip to on-site with Mark.

00:57:51: You SEE THE CHANGE AND IF YOU'RE WATCHING THE LINE The line is steeper up into the right and then when i got sober That line goes straight up into the right and Then I believe that, right?

00:58:09: And so At least i'm choosing to believe that.

00:58:14: And i'm gonna lean in.

00:58:14: it's been an amazing.

00:58:21: well It's been a amazing fifty four years but its really cool.

00:58:24: seven or eight years and certainly the last two just went through Two weeks ago and so fuck man no looking back and you know I guess the other thing i would tell you is, You live a life like I've lived in.

00:58:41: Life moves fast And when it moves fast not just moving fast its big Its rich It's colorful Everything about it Is shiny & special.

00:58:54: But When it moves that fast You can't capture these memories.

00:58:59: There are plenty of Memories that I was not able to capture.

00:59:03: And at this point in my life,

00:59:30: Lance all the more special that you chose to say yes, too taking an hour of your time and sharing.

00:59:37: The wealth off a journey that I think has no parallels in this world.

00:59:42: i mean you really and truly have written your own story and come through are really appreciate the time i appreciate the insights and do it again so well as

00:59:53: is Our good friend, Jesse DeBay.

00:59:56: We'd be remiss if we didn't give him a shout out because...

00:59:59: Yeah hundred percent.

01:00:05: But I do want to talk about Jesse for just that cause he is- you asked me to this.

01:00:10: You probably heard this already.

01:00:11: my first call was to Jesse going Should i Do This?

01:00:19: I hope you heard That from Him.

01:00:21: and He says

01:00:22: may have.

01:00:23: he goes, hell yes you should do it.

01:00:25: And I was like okay i'll do it because I don't do these...I just don't for whatever reason.

01:00:36: but the important thing about other than just acknowledging our connection really through Jesse is that and I'll just leave the audience with this um You can't go through This story that I went through without figuring out completely who your friends are.

01:00:56: Yeah, and there many ways to say that right?

01:01:01: Who's on the bus?

01:01:02: whose off-the-bus?

01:01:03: who leaned in?

01:01:04: who leaned out?

01:01:05: who is a friend?

01:01:06: who pretended To be a friend It is?

01:01:09: it Is The single most valuable lesson I learned through all of this.

01:01:15: i know exactly Who my Friends Are And There is an unbelievable amount of power in that.

01:01:27: And it's valuable.

01:01:28: and so, I bring this up because Jesse has been a great friend.

01:01:33: This is the guy... Jesse could have said you know what?

01:01:38: There was too much smoke and fire and controversy here.

01:01:43: I'm out!

01:01:44: He never left.

01:01:46: Jesse DeBay stood in that room.

01:01:50: You know there are many people who did.

01:01:52: but look there were others.

01:01:55: I understand that.

01:01:57: But by golly, if you stood in the room and said hey let's figure this out... In some way it just led me to believe they are here And Jesse is one of those guys.

01:02:11: So i'd be remiss If we didn't acknowledge him but also just acknowledge That part of his story How special he was.

01:02:22: Yeah, here's to more.

01:02:24: Jesse is in life.

01:02:25: Good people who can make the connection that you trust and I certainly can only agree even though our history isn't nearly as long as yours.

01:02:36: Well look we all go through stuff right?

01:02:39: And so You want people on your corner?

01:02:46: Look Jan needs guys at his corner.

01:02:51: It was going to be in his corner, but let's do it again soon.

01:02:56: You're great at this and I'm glad Jesse said yeah you should...

01:03:02: Well have to say the first introduction actually through Jesse taking an hour out of your day just kind of talk me about this project.

01:03:14: so that is exactly what the logo on your cap, forward.

01:03:20: I hope you keep moving forward and have a bit more tailwind for.