Enhanced Games CEO Max Martin: Paying for Performance and the Future of Elite Sport

00:00:00: And if every time you take a shortcut, what is the finish line worth?

00:00:04: If that... Everytime it gets tough.

00:00:06: You're like oh but I could enhance a little bit.

00:00:08: But The only world record that you have from a guy That initially was eight weeks on the program when he first broke that record The longest term experiment you Have Is James Magnuson the First very vocal athlete to come out and After two years of being fully enhanced came dead last at the games.

00:00:27: For James, I think his resting heart rate at times was like twenty-eight.

00:00:30: That's really insane.

00:00:34: The same as yours?

00:00:37: If

00:00:37: you're that obsessed about your body there is a hole to be filled within you.

00:00:43: psychologically In my opinion the only way to fill this whole is through evidence and it shows yourself how hard things can be done.

00:00:51: How does that contribute in filling that void?

00:00:56: What do you arrive at?

00:00:58: Look, I think once again the enhancements don't make up for fighting that we need to do.

00:01:05: Say everything against us!

00:01:07: We can prove them through the power of science... ...we are the best that we could ever think of.

00:01:12: Max is there a world when your sixty and you're done with all this

00:01:19: That

00:01:20: You ask yourself whether actually Missed the point of overcoming.

00:01:25: The resistance of fighting through being persistent and accepting Where your limitations are?

00:01:51: All right, so I want to be honest.

00:01:52: where I'm coming from here And I've lived an athletic pursuit for all my life.

00:01:57: It's been my dream pursuing the Olympics pursuing with world's biggest stages and i have zero like absolutely no tolerance for doping.

00:02:06: I think it's a pest, uh...I think its morally corrupt and i also think that defies the whole point of sports.

00:02:13: but having Max Martin the CEO of The Enhanced Games on was really important to me.

00:02:21: trying get an understanding what somebody who has No Sporting History is trying achieve.

00:02:28: when they claim move their physical limits humanity has placed upon itself and they're trying to set a new bar of what sport can be.

00:02:39: And it's about having a respectful conversation, hearing someone else's opinion... ...and really not meeting with outrage but certain kind of curiosity.

00:02:49: I have to be very honest.

00:02:51: Of course It is topic that so close my heart.

00:02:53: i'm emotional about..i am tied up That probably cant always express myself quite as clearly And Max is an extremely well-versed speaker.

00:03:04: He's very convicted of what he's saying, and really sometimes has a great way of expressing himself.

00:03:15: but Expressing yourself well and being right for me Is not Really the same thing you know however respectful?

00:03:23: The conversation stayed.

00:03:25: We simply never got to a point where we could actually see

00:03:27: eye-to-eye.

00:03:28: What I think is the actual question underneath of whether taking drugs to get ahead is something worth defending at all.

00:03:37: And, you know it sort of came into the mixture of recovery and what general society can do.

00:03:43: and well everybody's doing it... ...and its' the old argument just because everyone's doing- maybe doing it, assumedly is doing it certainly doesn't mean that there are a few moments I think in this show where The Gap really shows you know, where the language being used to defend starts to slip away is paying different attention.

00:04:05: But I'll let you be the judge of it.

00:04:07: please let me know what we think and without further ado here's Max Martin, CEO of The Enhanced Games.

00:04:14: Dear friends of the show, we have a very special guest today.

00:04:17: I am excited to have Max Emillian.

00:04:20: Max Martin on this show.

00:04:22: he is the CEO of The Enhanced Games.

00:04:24: i think everybody in our sports bubble has heard and deeply delved into some of their materials.

00:04:30: He is the man pushing the frontier of performance and longevity In A Very...I would say controversial way depending onto which lens you look at it And I'm very excited to hear his standpoint on where we go, what Enhanced means and the enhanced games bring us.

00:04:52: Max welcome for this show!

00:04:53: Welcome to Going Mental!

00:04:56: Thank you so much for having me on the channel.

00:04:57: Ian it's exciting to chat with you.

00:05:00: We have a traditional opener here... ...and are trying create definition of What It Means To Go Mental.

00:05:07: When You Hear Going Mental What Comes To Mind?

00:05:10: For Me going mental means All out.

00:05:14: It means like in German, we have the saying you know putting that like Block us on everything this right or left from you and completely being lazy focus going into the zone and pouring Everything that you have Into that certain subject matter that you're pursuing.

00:05:30: And so that's what I think it means for me.

00:05:32: to go mental Like lose connection to any norms What anyone would be?

00:05:36: accepting as a standard and Going farout than what you even thought yourself could be possible.

00:05:43: i like it.

00:05:43: i find its change for me over the years.

00:05:45: and uh... if he came to channeling aggression two really focusing energy like you say perhaps we can start.

00:05:52: The conversation on our common ground, and a common ground that you've created through the enhanced games and then you portray is the reimbursement of athletes right.

00:06:04: let's be very honest kirstie coventry came out i think a week ago or two, and said that athletes don't need to be paid.

00:06:11: I think this is very much your reaction to the headlines you've created over the last months?

00:06:18: The World Athletics Federation kind of reacted.

00:06:21: what we do... What's it about reimbursement made for building something different?

00:06:28: For us if you look at professional sports in general right before major sports like football tennis NBA NFL especially Leeds They are massively profitable and they're able to generate huge commercial value on the back of what athletes are building for them.

00:06:44: Now, many have in common.

00:06:46: is that very dedicated or making sure their commercial values transpires through the athlete's?

00:06:51: And let something in particularly Olympic sports.

00:06:55: That has never been really a case.

00:06:57: The Olympics around more than one hundred thirty years Longer then any one us And it started with this idea about being an amateur sport.

00:07:06: Now, that's changed though over time.

00:07:08: That's changed and also the ecosystem around monetizing sports has changed And so the Olympics are capable now of closing your multi-billion dollar media deals, multi billion dollar partnerships with their sponsors from around the globe and sit on all this capital.

00:07:23: Obviously they're dedicated in hosting great events.

00:07:26: They pay for a lot of it and fund international federations but what have never been A priority is to make sure the actual athletes are getting paid.

00:07:37: There's never been a, I think trial to do that and then i think it's something That isn't necessarily the ecosystems fault but default of how And where you prioritize the spending off cash for us?

00:07:51: That Is not what It should be like because all Of these you know billion dollar deals can only Be closed on The performance that the athletes Are putting.

00:07:59: You Know on the track, in the pool and any other arena that they're competing.

00:08:04: And this is what I find

00:08:04: sad.".

00:08:05: So our approach was like if we put athletes first... If you make this a priority to compensate them for their performance or training?

00:08:15: You can build an organizational structure behind it so that's possible!

00:08:20: What we've done now with The First Enhanced Games at the end of May….

00:08:24: It has always been a priority for us to pay the athletes.

00:08:26: all have gotten paid And we were able to pull this off.

00:08:31: This is something that you can, if you prioritize it rightly make happen.

00:08:35: and so for us as an organization We're making no secret around here To make money in the first place because otherwise also... ...we can't pay athletes.

00:08:44: The beauty of it now with every athlete on the roster They understand how they fit into a bigger picture of commercial value.

00:08:52: They know sports are commercial.

00:08:54: It's not like any other sport makes secrets out.

00:08:57: And because they see that, there are also very helpful in us building a company.

00:09:02: In a way That can be as commercial as possible so that the athletes Are the first beneficiaries of that commercial value?

00:09:08: I obviously like that idea and i probably See that you have to incentivize You know The best of the best To actually come and join and...I really hope that's kind Of a long-term plan As well.

00:09:19: But..The next move came from the World Athletics Federation.

00:09:24: right They put up fifty K for a win which You know, is a fraction of what you do.

00:09:29: But of course they've got for lack of better term the golden egg or prestige over the past world title and these kind things that are officially recognized through the sporting lens?

00:09:42: Is it something where... Okay this was great.

00:09:45: we created some change within sport.

00:09:49: Or does actually worry?

00:09:51: because if other federations were to pay their athletes What's incentive?

00:09:58: And it's a great question.

00:09:59: So for me, I think that Enhanced has a lot to do with World Athletics going out of the Paris Olympics in twenty four and starting to play.

00:10:06: athletes then win fifty thousand dollars.

00:10:09: And so if its for nothing else than we just achieved That i think we can be very proud ourselves.

00:10:16: Why do athletes join enhance games?

00:10:17: Yeah monetary incentives is huge.

00:10:20: For many of them there was big decision making factor.

00:10:24: But when I When I think about the longer perspective of you know, traditional sports and us.

00:10:29: We're not here to replace the Olympics or a traditional system.

00:10:32: we are never going to have more than ten thousand athletes competing in single enhanced games.

00:10:38: what were hereto do is create different platform that pursues things.

00:10:42: The olympics all around every sport from all around globe coming together mostly celebrating sports And thats beautiful.

00:10:52: for me when I went Paris was my first olympic.

00:10:54: It was one of the best sporting events.

00:10:56: If not my favorite sport event that I ever went to after The Enhanced Games, yeah?

00:11:00: But it's magical.

00:11:01: Paris...I don't know if you've been there but for me it was like Paris was like the aura how it felt being there..it was just unbelievable!

00:11:08: i was there when the marathon was here.

00:11:10: so like the entire inner city was basically closed with so difficult to get around.

00:11:13: but it was still so amazing and we're not there to replace that And We can't and we don't want to.

00:11:20: what we are here to do is showcase the benefits of enhancements through sports and what they can achieve for athletes.

00:11:27: And that's a very different sentiment, and if you just look at how science in even traditional sports has developed when you think about equipment technology the bikes today are very different than the bikes were twenty or thirty years ago.

00:11:43: The nutritional plans for athletes...how they fuel their body is extremely different.

00:11:48: then it was five-years ago ten-years.

00:11:51: We have so much technology and so much scientific benefit that athletes take into consideration every single year.

00:11:59: Now, what we define as enhancements is everything that's currently banned in sports.

00:12:04: So why do you want to change a lens on that?

00:12:08: That list of banned substances—and you know this very well from your career—is breathing every year.

00:12:15: In the early two thousands there were caffeine restrictions.

00:12:19: There's substances that get added every year, there are substances to get retracted every year.

00:12:24: That has nothing do with looking at or the athletes just take as a given.

00:12:31: so thats like the rule set we're working on.

00:12:35: The question were asking ourselves is who makes those rules and why they make them?

00:12:41: If I look other industries for example say Hollywood these also people in shape need to be fit.

00:12:48: There's no blend substances regulations on the actors that star in Marvel Hollywood movies.

00:12:53: If I look at Hugh Jackman and his role as Wolverine, he is not looking like that or acting because he just eats red meat and sleeps eight hours a day with good personal trainer.

00:13:03: No!

00:13:04: He is doing this role to take advantage of other substances too.

00:13:10: And we don't judge him for it.

00:13:12: if you look at executives around Many of them are openly enhanced trying to do everything, to optimize their own performance.

00:13:20: And so the question that we asked ourselves why our other people at the absolute top in other industries able to take advantage?

00:13:29: Of that science help then become the best version of themselves.

00:13:32: but then athletes who literally have the most you know like You know this very well from like endurance board and what you put your body through How taxing that is, why don't we allow athletes to take advantage of the same recovery injury prevention etc.

00:13:46: like medicines and therapies that everyone else can?

00:13:50: And so our approach was everything.

00:13:53: there's a regulated substance That has been regulated because theres research around it which shows those substances are safe.

00:14:00: Why cant athletes utilize them under the right clinical or medical supervision?

00:14:04: Because for us what is the thing about enhancements?

00:14:09: It's not the use of enhanced performance enhancing drugs, it is dangerous.

00:14:14: And so if we don't allow athletes or like in a clinically and medically supervised environment to take enhancements what will they do?

00:14:22: They would resort to unsafe ways of doing that.

00:14:24: There are tons of research on it that Charles had for particularly for Olympians.

00:14:28: Forty-three percent of Olympians admit using banned substances but only one per cent getting caught.

00:14:34: So you ask yourself how was this possible?

00:14:36: because they didn't newly develop drugs which were not well researched.

00:14:38: take additional drugs from top of it to hide what they're taking in the first place, masking agents.

00:14:43: And that's what is dangerous injecting yourself with substances without the right supervision.

00:14:47: and so the approach was to say how can we provide a framework where safe substances can be taken into consideration by athletes?

00:14:55: In an environment that monitors them... ...and gives him all his support for making sure their doings are safe?

00:15:01: I mean firstly foremost study you've cited many times which is forty three or forty four percent.

00:15:06: whatever.

00:15:08: Find me what you're looking to answer and I'll find your study.

00:15:11: To answer it, right?

00:15:12: I mean that's study is consistently twenty percent if not even twenty five percent over whatever other study on the subject has found meaning that The range of people saying that they are on drugs And cheating at the Olympics.

00:15:24: this is far lower.

00:15:25: and Of course i have to say That as an athlete because If i believe that everybody's doped-to-the-gills As Your poster boy says then that's a very tricky area to come from.

00:15:36: but i'm wondering what you're actually doing to change that, because you don't do doping tests.

00:15:41: You say you have health checks right?

00:15:44: But the mentality of these athletes doesn't change when they enter your system.

00:15:49: in fact I would argue that there will go even harder Because you've put so much money on the line.

00:15:53: it's existential and most These athletes have stated their reason for coming over as financial need.

00:16:01: Right.

00:16:03: And then all of a sudden you like well The enhanced games, the arbitrary rules of the water which I will give to you

00:16:10: are

00:16:11: widened a little bit.

00:16:12: To the next arbitrary rules Which Are yours right because You're not saying it's free for all?

00:16:19: Which is exactly what your?

00:16:20: pushing on the argument For athletes that they taking anything.

00:16:24: What do you doing to prevent Your athletes from Doing the exact same And just pushing and going All out rather than say safe medical as you said, recovery protocol.

00:16:37: So for us the difference is that it's not drugs to make you win and if you can give me all of these drugs under the sun.

00:16:46: I'm never going be able to compete with a good high schooler...I am just not an athlete!

00:16:50: I don't have any technique or dedication in sport but i dont need anything.

00:16:54: It´s what this is For athletes.

00:16:58: following your line of argumentation they say the athletes will really abuse dangerous substances.

00:17:04: That doesn't necessarily help them with their performance.

00:17:07: What sometimes is misperceived, that when we talk about enhancements We talked about ten maximum fifteen percent of kind of performance increase for athletes.

00:17:16: Most of it comes

00:17:18: from

00:17:18: let's be honest which is gigantic.

00:17:21: Yeah, like the end-of-import enhancement is massive

00:17:24: yeah But the majority if it comes form short and recovery times And harder like abilities to train harder because you're less prone to injuries.

00:17:32: That's what I come from.

00:17:33: It doesn't come from increased muscle mass.

00:17:35: Yes, there is a certain element to that but it's not for swimmers.

00:17:39: very interesting thing.

00:17:41: Swimmers don't want to get too lean.

00:17:43: Why?

00:17:44: Because the muscles are more dense so they make them sink in water and thats why we always wanna keep a certain body fat percentage actually To be more floatatious on the water.

00:17:54: Very interesting things We found with some of our training with athletes how we improved protocols over time.

00:18:03: But coming back to the point, why are our athletes not taking any dangerous substances?

00:18:08: Because they can see the benefits of that.

00:18:11: The results that they're looking to achieve.

00:18:13: you can actually achieve them with FDA-regulated substances.

00:18:17: You do NOT need to take any newly developed drugs That are not well researched because that's what it is all about.

00:18:24: It's not...you're not taking drugs for the sake Of taking drugs!

00:18:27: Your'e tracking drugs With a purpose in mind To get from where YOU ARE TO WHERE YOU WANT TO BE.

00:18:32: And because people have not been able to go the safe and regulated way in the past, Because those substances had been banned they had to resort to unsafe substances.

00:18:42: Now that their pathway of safe enhancement is possible They actually have at there disposal a gazillion different substances are regulated.

00:18:51: That has those same impacts that were previously looking get-to from those unregulated substances.

00:18:57: But yes!

00:18:57: At end today you're right.

00:18:59: We're not testing athletes whether they are taking cocaine.

00:19:06: we aren't, but that's also where the philosophical point comes in.

00:19:11: That is what I think our job isn't.

00:19:14: We respect people as grown adults and so on.

00:19:17: The same way when you don't drug-testing them You won't test them if driving a car or going over to speed limit Because that for us, as we say everything is regulated and allowed under the law because it's the highest regulator of what you can or cannot do.

00:19:37: We believe in the autonomy of a person And its not our job to make sure laws are provided by

00:19:43: Athletes who choose this path Who chose going out on their traditional system because whatever age they have Lets talk about ten percent.

00:19:57: You say it's forty, I said ten.

00:20:00: Truth is probably somewhere in the middle of athletes that take enhancement they're looking for an edge right?

00:20:06: And you say well its not your job to provide but do have a entry regulation.

00:20:11: They need test and go through vigorous medical testing, all kinds scanning... ...and you are looking find next frontier what humanly possible FDA again, which is just another arbitrary kind of line right?

00:20:28: We've had we've seen FDA approved products in the past that have then proven to be super dangerous.

00:20:34: You mentioned caffeine Which was on a list but never really turned out To Be Particularly particularly dangerous.

00:20:43: it was taken off-the-list later down The Line and That Line Is Moving for Both For The FDA And For The Water.

00:20:49: So What Is Essentially Your Contribution to finding the next frontier.

00:20:55: It's an interesting point, so I would argue though that it is a generous society and we can trust in regulator right?

00:21:00: And now for us take a stance on whether we could trust the regulator or the approval system of drugs... ...I think this isn't our business as well.

00:21:08: As i said at the end what comes down today?

00:21:12: if a Hollywood actor takes enhancements why cant an athlete under the right clinical and medical supervision?

00:21:19: But your question How are we finding the next frontier?

00:21:24: We're not a drug development company.

00:21:52: So we also had a lot of athletes that didn't choose to enhance themselves.

00:21:56: And, We just don't want to be restrictive for the athletes on what they can and cannot take.

00:22:05: Okay

00:22:06: but then if you're going down The autonomy path basically What your trying to do with your products is create new combinations or stacks as You call them off the product's that use.

00:22:20: because from my understanding and please correct me if I'm wrong.

00:22:23: It's not a gazillion products, there is limited amount of product that you really work with kind-of.

00:22:30: have medical professionals experimented with your athletes?

00:22:34: Yeah so there are two ways for athlete to get enhanced.

00:22:37: The one thing they can enhance by themselves And the other way we've established was through the Enhanced Medical Program.

00:22:45: What common denominator in both is as mentioned before health and medical screenings, where we look at a gazillion different biomarkers in them to make sure that they stay healthy and safe.

00:22:59: Why are we doing that?

00:23:01: We didn't touch up on this before so maybe quickly discover it is if you think about abuse of substances right... That's the point that we were exploring before.

00:23:10: what?

00:23:10: if an athlete takes too much

00:23:11: etc.,

00:23:11: that's going to be reflected in their biomarker.

00:23:14: So even before we sign our first athletes In order to be signed They need to pass those medical screening.

00:23:19: That is also something that's extremely common in other sports.

00:23:23: Before Cristiano Ronaldo went back to Man United, he went through a gazillion different health checks and medical screenings... ...to make sure you can go back!

00:23:32: So we're lending ourselves different methodologies than what we see on other sports being extremely normal.

00:23:37: And so we have the athlete's baseline before they start getting enhanced Whether it was independently or through an enhanced medical program.

00:23:44: Those medical screening are continuously happening over time just up until they did like before the games, and only if athletes cleared those medical screenings were allowed to participate.

00:23:56: So someone ever took for example an absurd amount of adrenaline.

00:24:01: Adrenaline is a proof drug but you would see that in cardiac screening or cardiac imaging

00:24:07: etc.,

00:24:07: we'd have done with the athlete who disqualified them.

00:24:11: And so thats how we make sure athletes are not over abusing substances because it will be reflected in their health.

00:24:20: And that's how we make sure the athletes stay within ranges, they're healthy for

00:24:24: them.".

00:24:25: Well yeah I mean there is a drug taking and then there are masking... There always kind of things.

00:24:30: but since you brought up Cristiano Ronaldo i think several aspects here.. The guy gets paid two hundred million dollars or something like And I think it's something where the club is kind of backing their investment, making sure that he's actually healthy enough to be on the pitch.

00:24:45: The second important point... It

00:24:46: was same thing for us right?

00:24:50: Yes but you only pay... You do pay athletes.

00:24:54: come-on

00:24:54: Right?!

00:24:55: Not just winning preem there are also some athletes.

00:25:00: No no!

00:25:01: The athletes were paid appearance fees or salaries.

00:25:05: they're on the team or not.

00:25:06: But

00:25:06: the other important thing that comes to my mind is that Cristiano Ronaldo, he's also medically checked in order to be insurable which from my research was something that The Enhanced Games wasn't able to do for their athletes where you know...the risk was too high.

00:25:25: basically You couldn't get insurance against being seriously injured or killed Which are called an uninsurable risk.

00:25:31: How would feel about considering what you're doing is, within the legal limits.

00:25:38: There's a good question.

00:25:39: so I'm not sure about the Cristiano Ronaldo insurance topic etc.

00:25:43: but

00:25:43: every athlete gets

00:25:44: checked

00:25:45: So they can be insured?

00:25:46: i had to do the same thing.

00:25:48: Every year You go through medical screening and that basically you have to hand your insurance in order because there Is higher risk as an athlete As it is.

00:25:57: yeah our athletes are from health perspective ensured But obviously you cannot ensure against anything.

00:26:04: And the second thing that we have to put in consideration here as well is this, there's something where you're not unopened with your athletes.

00:26:12: We talk about educating them and every athlete before they take any enhancements at end of day what were providing an opportunity for their athletes get enhanced.

00:26:22: so it goes through enhancement protocol on how works if baseline assessments all those athletes then into perspective event.

00:26:33: So a swimmer is on different protocol than a sprinter.

00:26:35: Or just think about it like this, someone who runs the marathon will be taking very different protocols then someone that runs one hundred meter sprint.

00:26:42: Different events and skills required to win at each.

00:26:45: therefore also different substances To help you become best of those.

00:26:50: Why for example in cycling?

00:26:51: It's always certain type of substance That athletes are getting tested positive For which for example weightlifting has never been tested before Just because Who are you as an individual and what are your specific goals?

00:27:05: And any athlete gets recommended a protocol that is personalized to them.

00:27:08: So no athlete amongst the athletes who were participating in games wasn't exactly the same protocol, why as well?

00:27:15: because athletes also react differently to certain substances.

00:27:20: Some people like milk others maybe are lactose intolerant some people or hyporesponder for example.

00:27:25: two one substance other not responding then.

00:27:28: much so the personalization approach extremely important.

00:27:32: Now, the athletes then get recommended a protocol through an enhanced medical program because that's what we controlled.

00:27:39: The athlete should have recommended their protocol and it was entirely up to them which of those recommended substances they would like or not take.

00:27:47: Some athletes once printed for example she got a recommendation on her protocol.

00:27:52: She actually chose to not take any of these substances.

00:27:55: perfectly fine as well.

00:27:56: but when giving to these athletes always is a recommendation based on our independent medical commission or independent scientific commission, which is like very top tier people in them.

00:28:08: And then it's up to them to decide what they would like to consider or

00:28:12: not.".

00:28:12: The quote I read is elderly white overweight men.

00:28:15: why should be setting the rules?

00:28:17: That makes me wonder... In that case no easier to attack the messenger than answer whether an nineteen- or twenty year old should be offered six figures.

00:28:30: Dope to the gills, so get themselves you know enhanced.

00:28:34: Is that an easily announced twenty-one?

00:28:37: Okay The question is the question is young for me really like it's a philosophical point.

00:28:43: It's a different standpoint than we have.

00:28:45: um if the same thing as or like We have Adopted in society in reverse taking step back So many things that would just take us normal In Germany when your sixteen you can legally go to the store, buy wine and kill yourself with drinking two bottles of wine like just down them.

00:29:04: Then we accept as a risk this is a substance when not the use of the substances dangerous but misuse.

00:29:10: so that's perfectly legal perfectly fine.

00:29:13: it happens every single day that sixteen seven-year olds in Germany die from alcohol abuse.

00:29:19: what We are saying Is That When Someone Isn't Adult And something is legal under the law.

00:29:27: Just like alcohol, why should there be a sporting body that decides what their twenty-one year old athletes cannot take?

00:29:37: Why do we expect an athlete to get through level you were competing at... ...to get to the level it requires to win an Olympic gold medal...?

00:29:46: Why do they expect those athletes put their bodies in all of this pain and then see them once they get fifty or sixty?

00:29:54: the states that they're in, not just their bodies but their minds.

00:29:58: Their financial position.

00:29:59: we expect them to grow through all of that.

00:30:02: But then we restrict him on The latest science and medicine that literally anyone else in the world can use To support and strengthen their bodies.

00:30:11: Those athletes are not allowed to do that And that's what I think.

00:30:14: and as for the company things is Not the right approach which is why we've established a different system.

00:30:20: answer That's where this word becomes argumentation.

00:30:23: Because what you're or what we are suggesting with the world anti-doping agency does is it knows better than the athletes and so, its doing to protect the athlete.

00:30:34: That's where this about

00:30:34: because

00:30:35: fairness... Look, fairness always a debatable thing.

00:30:39: maybe can touch up on that topic later.

00:30:41: I love that topic of fairness as well but for me something is allowed under law And we restricting people taking advantage off there whereas others can.

00:30:51: And so if a twenty-one year old wants to enhance, I believe.

00:30:56: If it's allowed by the law they should be able too.

00:30:58: just like that Twenty one year old athlete can also go and buy cigarettes and can also Go ahead and buy vodka.

00:31:05: Yeah That's why we're

00:31:06: not protecting themselves.

00:31:07: Yes We are not protecting the athletes.

00:31:09: The thing is i'm of course the living counter example To your point Of the athletes being broken Being you left behind, not being able to walk and whatever else.

00:31:21: like I mean...I'm forty-five.

00:31:24: I am definitely not enhanced never have been.

00:31:28: i'm living my best life And I built My Life on overcoming these obstacles that You're essentially removing right because I do believe That there is.

00:31:40: There Is Purpose in Mastery?

00:31:44: If you build mastery through these steps that are just uncomfortable.

00:31:53: They're the things, or they make you find... That makes look much deeper.

00:32:00: and if every time You take a shortcut my question is what does this finish line worth?

00:32:05: If everytime it gets tough but I could enhance little bit because of point is you saying responsible use?

00:32:14: We know that in society, we're not very good at administering things responsibly.

00:32:19: It's not like you say... ...we are taking a glass of wine and it has got to be two bottles or more!

00:32:25: And with enhancements is the exact same human psychology that still steps into this.

00:32:31: Not as though all of sudden common sense prevails.

00:32:34: So when you take these enhancements As what I define short cut What is the finish line actually worth when you do get there?

00:32:46: what Do you think Is The actual value of crossing that line?

00:32:51: first

00:32:53: I Think it's a It's a great point.

00:32:55: That I as an non-athlete just have very different, you know past and mindset about because For you You've had your career where you gave everything they don't know.

00:33:05: And if you know what that's worth to you and you know how much it took to get there and i Don't write but I'm in a position where i can think about the finish line or what it would take me to get there.

00:33:16: And, say non-enhanced and also being enhanced getting through that finishline.

00:33:22: Now im enhanced for two and half years!

00:33:42: It's not gonna make up for it.

00:33:44: If I wanna run at some point in sub-eleven seconds, it is still requiring me to be there with the dedication motivation discipline every single day and train say no my friends family everything else because drugs don't make up.

00:34:01: so i dont think that finish line doesn´t mean anything anymore just your own enhancements that the finish line, for example.

00:34:10: For a hundred meters spread at the Olympic final means less because the track they were running on was the fastest track there ever made.

00:34:18: It's by Mondo Track which is like an Italian company that supplies tracks.

00:34:22: They also supplied this same track we had in The Enhanced Games Which has been very different than one-hundred years ago when they ran a hundred metres On a dirt road where they literally dug little holes and didn't have any starting blocks.

00:34:37: They didn't have spikes that they had today, where the running shoes and carbon insoles.

00:34:43: These are all different things.

00:34:45: how we as a society developed in advance and adopted just like we do more on nutrition recovery whatever your stance is training at high altitude in the mountains and then, you know competing with someone where it's not that high altitude.

00:35:05: There are so many different things we have learned over time to help us with our performance and recovery And our view is just why draw a line an arbitrary line I think beyond what law allows or regulates?

00:35:21: So this additional area will make inaccessible for athletes To get into just because you're taking that, the finish line means less.

00:35:31: Just like I don't think it means less because the track is faster and shoes are better etc...

00:35:35: Well my whole point is if you sit at home sidelined for a month Because your Achilles tendon hurts Which happened to me many times There's such mental process And there so much to be said of going through pain and showing yourself You can overcome the resistance that you can actually make it through.

00:36:01: and not to sound too kind of old-school about this, but I think if you're that obsessed About your body about yourself And your self improvements.

00:36:15: And your enhancements?

00:36:16: I would say that there is a world in which one could say There's a hole to be filled within you right psychologically and In my opinion the only way to fill that whole is through evidence, and the evidence is showing yourself that you can do hard things.

00:36:33: Showing yourself that are able to go and overcome these kinds of kind of resistances.

00:36:39: And when we then take substances That aren't new enough for us not know what actually happens down the line.

00:36:52: Then my question Is How's that contributing?

00:36:57: to you actually filling that void.

00:36:59: What do, what do you arrive at?

00:37:02: Well I think it's an interesting question right?

00:37:04: um so first of all one of the things like let me know as well is every athlete there was part of the Enhanced Medical Program receives medical monitoring for five years after participating in a games which is something we're super proud of.

00:37:16: this.

00:37:16: while look its once again a philosophical point i think we should look at enhancements the same way when looking other substances and our lives just the long-term consequence of alcohol.

00:37:28: we actually know very well, and we still let athletes drink just like we let other people.

00:37:34: And so that's where it really comes down to for us at the end of today is why should athletes be the only people who have to suffer through injuries?

00:37:43: in a way I as an nonathlete wouldn't have to suffered though?

00:37:48: So i think its remarkable what they achieve how they recover from injury but I don't think thats necessary.

00:37:56: For example, we had one of our swimmers named Andrey Govorov.

00:37:59: He's the current world record holder in a Fifty Butterfly have a shoulder injury because surgery and after he has gotten his surgery... ...he couldn't take this same treatment route that I would've had to take….

00:38:13: …because it'd got him banned from competition!

00:38:16: That is not even an enhancement for competitions but just recovering from a surgery.

00:38:23: It's for me just conceptually, not the right way to think about it.

00:38:26: Because we're now taking advantage of like the biggest thing that we have inside in society which is our knowledge and helping people recover from surgery.

00:38:34: I think this something they should be able do but its really a philosophical point because why was caffeine added again?

00:38:42: To substance that people can use And didn't stay you know banned longer?

00:38:47: That's this arbitrary point.

00:38:49: who says there are list of four thousand substances is today going to be the same, that it's gonna in a hundred years from now.

00:38:56: Because if you take such perspective or view like where are we're gonna be in one hundred years for now?

00:39:01: And I ask myself this question as society Are We Gonna Be More Enhanced Or

00:39:04: Not?,

00:39:05: i think we are!

00:39:06: Are We Going To Be In One Hundred Years From Now In Sports More Than Hands Turn Off?.

00:39:10: I Think We Are As Well!.

00:39:11: So That Is Kind Of Where I and The Company Stand Behind And I Said It'Not A Question of Weather But Just When.

00:39:21: Forms are our thinking around this.

00:39:23: Yeah, absolutely and I get that it's philosophical.

00:39:25: And then he is a cornerstone.

00:39:26: right.

00:39:26: because exactly to your point carbon shoes all these kind of exterior or more aerodynamics All the things that come in as an exterior.

00:39:32: but then you get Things like Meldonium which was FDA approved as a effedrine and pseudo-effedrine Which caused kind of?

00:39:43: All kinds of all kinds have had a havoc and was kind of revoked.

00:39:47: But the thing is really what i'm Trying to get too is that we've run this experiment before on a societal level.

00:39:56: Oregon for example decriminalized drug possession in twenty-twenty one and That turned out To basically turn downtown, Oregon into a zombie city.

00:40:08: And forcing voters to kind of come back and really step Out onto his visible crisis.

00:40:18: I'm just thinking why removing the rules work better in sport than it would on a societal level.

00:40:26: It's an interesting point that wouldn't compare these two things right?

00:40:28: The one thing is decriminalizing, you know dangerous substances and the other is medically approved substances that we prescribe to patients every single day That have been around for decades that are applied In medicine literally every single.

00:40:45: they own patients of all sorts.

00:40:47: So substance that we know very well in an environment of elite sports to help athletes recover quicker, protect some of the buzzer from injuries and have them perform better.

00:40:55: I think these twos are just very different Yeah!

00:41:00: And what i'm saying aswell is like it's not a free-for-all right?

00:41:04: Every athlete who goes into competition needs to pass our health and medical screenings To make sure they're safe to compete.

00:41:11: This safety measure which has shown to actually work, because now let's talk about like this was conceptual.

00:41:20: but if I switch to the outcomes of what we've done all of the athletes have improved their health.

00:41:25: They even proved their performances.

00:41:27: across the forty-two athletes that we had We had twenty one personal bests.

00:41:31: The athletes are like...the average age of an athlete who said a new person at best is thirty.

00:41:36: The previous set personal best on average was twenty three.

00:41:41: So seven years have lapsed and some athletes Megan Romano at thirty four who set the new person at best compared to when she was twenty-one.

00:41:49: And, when she wasn't her prime... She was a two time world champion!

00:41:52: She's now fitter than ever was performing better then she ever was healthier and richer than she ever is.

00:42:00: So these are all outcomes of that ecosystem we created which I think showcased under the right framework it can work.

00:42:11: My point being I set a world record at forty-one.

00:42:17: Not enhanced, healthier than ever and not taking that shortcut And therefore now in retirement also not having the question of what if was i able to do this?

00:42:31: That's why my whole philosophy around is you're actually facilitating it.

00:42:37: You just providing fast track for someone We've used the word a lot, arbitrary finish line.

00:42:45: That is a world record that we have set for a random distance some time ago.

00:42:51: Yeah look I think it's remarkable.

00:42:53: you can do this.

00:42:54: The question though say You could use enhancements.

00:42:58: What else Could be possible?

00:43:01: And i see that Some people Considered themselves like just some People are vegan because they don't choose to eat meat.

00:43:08: I'm not vouching For everyone...I am Not here To say Jan should get enhanced Not at all, but I'm here to say there are certain people that would like to get in hands.

00:43:19: Say ten percent of the people choose do it and professional sports But they need go around is unsafe for them.

00:43:26: Can we not provide a different platform?

00:43:28: A different environment where we can make its safe for him?

00:43:32: And so It's...it's..not one as better than other.

00:43:36: They're two different things with two different objectives.

00:43:40: That why i said in beginning We're not here to replace the Olympic system.

00:43:44: I freaking love the Olympics, yes and they should absolutely pay the athletes!

00:43:47: They make so much money.

00:43:48: if you take a fraction of what they made that paid the athletes it would be absolutely stellar And If they need help in financial modeling for it i'll offer up.

00:43:58: but on the substances side there's different viewpoints as well.

00:44:04: our athletes have gotten enhanced.

00:44:06: everyone who has spoken to got enhance absolutely loved it, the impact that they had on their bodies and our athletes are very vocal about how its been for them.

00:44:15: And from many of them... It's been life-changing!

00:44:18: Seeing for example Christian Golomiev, yeah?

00:44:21: Like, Christian is a four time Olympian wanted to retire after the Paris Olympics.

00:44:27: throughout his career has been in the top ten.

00:44:30: His total Korea earnings were around two hundred thousand dollars.

00:44:33: Christian wanted to end this career came to us got enhanced, broke a world record in February twenty-five.

00:44:40: Got paid a million dollars since then.

00:44:42: Christian's been training with us.

00:44:44: Christian broke the World Record again at The Games.

00:44:47: Got payed another one million dollars won two events and other five hundred thousand dollars on top of that two hundred fifty K per event.

00:44:53: so Christian last year and half with us made two and a half million dollars performed better than anyone ever else And has a beautiful career ahead where he loves what he's doing, loves the ecosystem that is in.

00:45:07: And it has been life changing for him his wife their son and there second child they're expecting a few weeks from now.

00:45:15: So this like completely different ecosystem.

00:45:18: Christian did not hear saying I hate my Olympic career.

00:45:22: No!

00:45:22: He was still very proud of that but these are all very different ecosystems that he participated.

00:45:27: Yeah i get it again.

00:45:29: compliment you on financial incentives.

00:45:33: Like you said, this is a money-making proposition for you guys.

00:45:36: And you are trying to sell a range of supplements and I think what's distinct about them... ...is kind of the combination of how they're done?

00:45:49: If i understand it correctly….

00:45:51: …the evidence your gathering—and insights your gathering —is through athletes' protocols right?

00:45:57: Is that how you would describe it?

00:46:01: Think about like this!

00:46:03: And you're very well-prepared, so probably have heard me say this before but maybe for the audience.

00:46:09: The work that we do with athletes I think is similar to Formula One.

00:46:12: When engineers in a Formula One team develop the Formula One car That's at the forefront of scientific innovation and technology.

00:46:20: If that formula one car will never get mass produced But what they learn when developing it In some form or derivative It'll trickle down into rollcar production.

00:46:31: So for example, the shifting pedals that you have in cars come from motor racing.

00:46:35: Anti-blockage system comes form motor racing.

00:46:37: The work we do with athletes is very similar.

00:46:40: What helps an athlete like Christian break a world record?

00:46:43: or Megan at thirty four beat her twenty one year old self?

00:46:47: It's way too complicated For an average Joe like myself But to work.

00:46:51: what he did was athletes constantly helps us In understanding And applying those same learnings and making them accessible to the everyday consumer, like myself.

00:47:02: To have that life-changing impact for every day people

00:47:04: too.".

00:47:05: All

00:47:05: right so we've talked about Christian.

00:47:07: he was through a sporting lens The one that saved the enhanced games.

00:47:13: I think your reaction...I saw video of your reaction when you broke the record.

00:47:18: It was last event of the day and there were lot relief And i'm not even sure if it's moment of prayer or something..i don't know but there is quick kind of very intense moments.

00:47:28: And what was it actually like for you watching your first Enhanced Games unfold?

00:47:34: Yeah, I was beautiful young.

00:47:36: Like i cried in the first event and very emotional about sports...like..I really love our athletes!

00:47:40: I really loved the sports that we're doing as just obsessed with it.

00:47:44: so like It was extremely emotional for me.

00:47:46: um I don't know how many times I cried that day but like some freaking money.

00:47:52: and especially You know once once the games were over when we did this ceremony We gave the athlete their trophies And the Killers play at a concert.

00:47:58: that's like all hell broke loose, you know?

00:48:00: Because it has taken so much to get there.

00:48:05: It is been here prior.

00:48:06: we announced in Las Vegas and were going do this event.

00:48:09: We have never done an event on such scale before.

00:48:12: This was our first time!

00:48:14: We had incredible partners who've been with us during their journey.

00:48:17: That made things possible Revisiting afterwards again.

00:48:23: speaking to athletes The feedback that we've gotten was remarkable.

00:48:27: Like, the athletes told us they enjoyed participating in enhanced games more than at the Olympics and from such stellar athletes hearing such a feedback is just amazing!

00:48:38: So for me it was unbelievable for the Games to have happened And I think... We saw across the globe as well how many people we reached How many people watched or commented on it Or articles about it.

00:48:54: It's remarkable.

00:48:54: I think for first time property to have such an impact around the globe and that's what we're very proud of as an organization.

00:49:02: Yeah, a hundred percent i mean The kind of outreach And the emotions also That you stirred good and bad Were were indeed remarkable.

00:49:11: it reminded me A lot?

00:49:12: uh, of Festina in nineteen ninety six right which was the The cycling team that was kind of I think one of the first to be um or That had a huge drug scandal And increased their sales forty percent In hindsight because everybody was talking about Festina and-and the whole thing Right?

00:49:34: And whichever perspective you look at it from One is genius.

00:49:38: And the other one Is like oh my god what are they doing To tarnish sport.

00:49:42: But I do have to push you a little bit in saying that, You came out and said your gonna change what humanity is capable of.

00:49:50: And had bold claims!

00:49:52: In the end... The enhancements which are trying sell arguably didn't contribute much because one record was broken on speed suit Which according James Magnuson contributes somewhere between half full second over fifty which i think it's quite optimistic.

00:50:10: but depending What you look at, the kind of outcome versus what was initially proposed is vastly different.

00:50:20: Right?

00:50:22: That's true yes and I think it's true or not.

00:50:26: no It is true.

00:50:27: And Yes did we expect more world records?

00:50:30: absolutely um i Was very vocal about in the beginning as well like before the games that thought were gonna do five.

00:50:37: But As You Know Is an athlete as Well.

00:50:40: Sports sports And all the preparation going to world doesn't matter if the head's not there that day.

00:50:47: If an injury occurs, we had two weight lifters, Arlie and Bear Trees who both broke a World Record in training... ...who got injured in competition and have to withdraw from competition.

00:51:00: We also had Bodhi another weightlifter who was primed to break it.

00:51:05: He felt incredible but he just didn't have any in him Didn't happen?

00:51:12: and then Thor I thought it's gonna be the fifth one was also very well prepared who Also didn't do it.

00:51:20: Um, And i think One thing that is a thing.

00:51:24: yes we've been Very vocal about world records but i've tried to change already prior To the games.

00:51:32: Really The messaging in how things are perceived around enhancement because Enhancements Are not just relevant for people That are out there to break World Records.

00:51:39: They're Relevant For Anyone.

00:51:41: I mean, we talked about Hollywood now a gazillion times.

00:51:43: But do you know what's also very interesting group of people that is very much enhanced?

00:51:47: Is orchestra musicians Now with the day take obviously not anapholex steroids but they take beta blockers to help them with stage fright and i Take certain substances That helped me become The best at sending emails all day And working Very hard!

00:52:04: So What we truly are there To Do as A company is to help people become the best versions of themselves, whatever that might be.

00:52:15: And then if you look at on a secondary layer not in total number of world records but the number of personal bests athletes have achieved twenty one across forty two athletes.

00:52:26: it's remarkable.

00:52:28: and so what we are going out how-to do?

00:52:32: make the impact of enhancements more relatable for people.

00:52:35: One thing I've been speaking about as well I would love to like partner with athletes in different sports.

00:52:42: For example, Hirox athletes for example athlete that are doing you know triathlons Athletes that are completely different sports That have bigger audiences.

00:52:53: The showcase the ability of how enhancements can impact their performance and their health And create more inspiration For other people Like myself To get enhanced and see what that impact Can be.

00:53:05: Because thats why i'm so obsessed about everything we do With Enhanced because They've changed my life, like the reason why I got enhanced because i never wanted to speak with an athlete about enhancement without knowing what it does for yourself.

00:53:14: It's absolutely changed.

00:53:15: my live since then has changed you know?

00:53:18: My family is alive and my parents enhance friends of mine their parent... And just saw like for people that I love the positive impact that enhancements under a right supervision can have!

00:53:28: That something extremely beautiful they were trying share with millions more people

00:53:34: Okay.

00:53:34: And so where I push back is that the only world record you had, The Only Improvement of Performance... Well sorry!

00:53:41: That's one step too far.

00:53:42: but the only World Record You Have was from a guy who initially was eight weeks on the program when he first broke that record right?

00:53:51: He knew signing.

00:53:55: and then the longest term experiment you have is James Magnuson the very vocal athlete to come out After two years of being fully enhanced, came Dead Last at the Games.

00:54:11: Said that there were all kinds things they experimented with didn't go well but how does it play into longevity idea?

00:54:19: Of this beautiful life you're selling?

00:54:23: Interesting case.

00:54:24: right because we are benchmarking James on performance.

00:54:27: You know he was also retired for an extremely long period And James, I think gave it everything and can be very proud of himself.

00:54:36: No doubt

00:54:36: performing at that age but was also interesting to observe.

00:54:39: is you know how James's health metrics have developed?

00:54:43: How his resting heart rate has developed since he's gotten enhanced two versus when He Was Still Retired?

00:54:49: How His Viotomex Has Developed?

00:54:52: How Is Heart Rate Variability Has Developped All Of These Things Which Have Absolutely Gone Through The Roof.

00:54:58: For James, I think his resting heart rate at times was like twenty-eight.

00:55:01: Which is absolutely insane!

00:55:04: The same as yours.

00:55:09: You are a Stella Ashley this while you know but for Joe and myself... But if he looked at James before he got enhanced to then on when he went in hands what that did for him?

00:55:19: If you look it's view to maximum was an eighties.

00:55:22: His heart variability i think of time was around two hundred Like james unbelievable in terms of what the enhancement did for his health and James as a person outside of The Poor, how he felt about himself.

00:55:36: How we came back again?

00:55:37: How it is something that was passionate about And that's incredible.

00:55:41: yes james Was not the fastest but also with its interesting things as well That Not for justification But just to conceptually write the people at the games where the people that we have been able To sign.

00:55:55: this was not an Olympic roster, right?

00:55:59: Obviously Ben Proud who just was second at the World Championships in twenty-twenty five Was much quicker than James.

00:56:08: Who has retired for many years and so with you know Christian would come off Paris Olympics and broke a record before.

00:56:15: So like In any qualifying event We wouldn't have ended with a roster that were different apart At the finish line.

00:56:24: then what we had.

00:56:25: And I think one thing that we'll be seeing over time as well, and I see this already now with people in my DMs like on Instagram.

00:56:33: The interest in more current elite athletes is much more sparking after the first games than it was for example before.

00:56:43: so just like under perspective from where James ended in competition to for example Christian?

00:56:48: Yeah of course but it begs the question the longevity aspect of all this, right?

00:56:54: Which I think your co-founder Christian Angamai he was very much like saying.

00:56:58: This is a disease that he wants to cure and there is that whole aspect.

00:57:03: then There are certain studies out there That once you take exogenous testosterone for awhile Your body stops producing it so basically creating a dependency For life.

00:57:15: And my question Is Then if You point that The performance Nice, but somehow secondary and the health markers are so important.

00:57:26: How do you marry those two facts?

00:57:29: It's a good question.

00:57:29: So for me as well is like again taking things for granted That we can question whether we take them for granted that at today Twenty year old has less natural testosterone than just a few decades ago A sixty-year-old had And so we'd just take like things like this absolutely for granted an absolute decrease in our physiology.

00:57:50: if you're an average person like Max and others, that's a very human-like yarn.

00:57:53: You know?

00:57:56: Yes are we creating dependencies?

00:57:58: am I creating a dependency?

00:57:59: because this is never offline and never more than a meter away from me?

00:58:03: Am i creating a Dependency with the constant desire to be online And work on other things?

00:58:11: Absolutely These are just The Things That We In Many Areas Of Our Lives Take As Granted And in One Area Would Never Consider To Take Granted.

00:58:20: So, for example after I got in Hansen for the first time two and a half years ago.

00:58:24: I stopped after one year of enhancement.

00:58:27: Um i then For example that I also did here t as part of it.

00:58:31: now my testosterone levels obviously One second off were much lower than previously when I started with my first protocol But over a period of eight months?

00:58:41: I came within like an eighty percent interval again Of where I was before I started my first enhancement journey.

00:58:48: So those levels do recover.

00:58:50: For certain substances, it's very different.

00:58:53: but am I for example willing to take something from the rest of my life if there is a massive benefit for me?

00:58:59: Absolutely AM!

00:59:01: Just like i'm willing for the rest in my life To have when you go out with your friends A few drinks just Like im willing to prioritise my sleep every night and know that this will have long-term effects on me.

00:59:11: And so this where comes back to point of like.

00:59:14: Im not here sell everyone or force everybody get enhance.

00:59:17: But if you would like to explore that for and benefit from everything it can do, then there should be a safe pathway in doing so.

00:59:28: You see this right now on the US particularly with everything happening at the peptide crisis.

00:59:33: People are full of people telling me about which peptides they're on what I'm taking or what their impacts are.

00:59:41: but when we look where those peptides come I'm sure you know all about this, like so many people sell substances that are wrongly labeled where zero percent of the substance they're selling is inside.

00:59:54: And people are injecting themselves with a hope for a certain outcome without the right medical supervision or the knowledge of what they actually.

01:00:01: injecting themselfs was

01:00:03: fun fact.

01:00:04: if i may just interrupt You For One Second The US Is The Number One Place We Were Told and we have evidence That Supplements Are Tarnished because there is no need to actually separate productions, and basically you're always left with a trace of what was previously produced on the same production line.

01:00:24: And that's very US-based problems just in terms of purity.

01:00:27: I know we kind of tend to blame this on Chinese medicines but as an athlete for us it was actually all these U.S supplements were told avoid.

01:00:38: That just shows that people are glorifying unsafe substances and use of those in the hope for certain outcomes.

01:00:45: And all of that is not needed because as I said, you're not taking a drugs with the sake of taking the drugs.

01:00:50: You take them With the Hope For A Certain Outcome?

01:00:53: We Just Have So Much Within What The FDA Regulates.

01:00:56: They Can Help People Get To Those Outcomes In A Safe And Supervised Way.

01:01:01: And so it's all about the choice.

01:01:09: You know?

01:01:09: It is your choice to suffer through the pain, you know?

01:01:12: I would never do that!

01:01:15: My mindset... ...is just very different.

01:01:16: coming back to what means to be mental

01:01:18: Right?!

01:01:19: That's mental but i wouldn't ever do that.

01:01:21: But thats how you and me are different

01:01:23: True, how we just choose however to suffer through other things because I could never be online sending all these emails that you do all day long.

01:01:32: And you say normal max versus super human me?

01:01:35: I'm just a regular dude!

01:01:37: I find so much purpose and i'll find happy retirement... ...and I found good life through knowing that.. ..I have overcome this obstacles and thats kind of where we differ.

01:01:50: Right, you overcome them but in a different area of your life.

01:01:54: Yeah no that's great and I find that pleasure getting more out of me seeing how i can perform when being enhanced versus how i perform while not enhanced.

01:02:05: And I see how Cody Miller as the father-of two at thirty five setting new personal bests is now The impact set it had on his life and how Cody was actually very skeptical It's one of our swimmers, about enhancements and was openly talking about it.

01:02:24: Like how he you know is like thinking about in the beginning And how its changed for him?

01:02:29: We had a documentary I don't if we've seen but If You have an hour at your time Its on YouTube from ESPN About Enhanced Games.

01:02:38: They're asking him Hey Cody what do think about being part Of this company and promoting products that they are selling to consumers?

01:02:46: How Do Feel About That?

01:02:49: And Cody was like, do you know what?

01:02:50: I feel great about it.

01:02:51: Because I know what these products did for me the impact that they had on my life and this is something that i'm excited about For other people to experience their lives as well.

01:03:01: To put into perspective when I winning two Olympic gold medals Do You Know Which Companies I Was Promoting Than McDonald's & Coca-Cola?

01:03:09: Was I Proud of Myself For Doing That Not As Much As Im Now Proud To Promote The Product Of Enhanced?

01:03:15: It Is A Very Interesting Perspective And this is why we have these people excited about our products because the positive impact that we've experienced with them.

01:03:23: Max, I think we should have this conversation five years after he's retired... ...because i don't think you would have spoken in a way like McDonalds and Coca-Cola either at the time right?

01:03:33: You follow the trail where money goes.

01:03:35: so of course.. He's not going to speak or bite his hand when it feeds him At this stage again suggesting that he doesn't actually mean what he's saying.

01:03:50: But you see the bias, right?

01:03:53: I do see the biased yes but i also see how Cody and particularly his wife who was even more skeptical of Enhanced in the beginning than he was How they are as people...I know them both You know spend time with him talk to then See how health is developing And so..i Do see That.

01:04:13: Yes!

01:04:14: Thats a fair point To make other than what I'm telling you.

01:04:17: not really much that i can say to like, uh unlock your yeah or this disarmier argument but then.

01:04:24: Yeah let's see where he says in five years from now.

01:04:27: the one last thing i would like to touch are you still got two minutes?

01:04:30: Yeah

01:04:32: of course you have to touch on it.

01:04:35: Brian Johnson shows up at your event.

01:04:36: all right he is a master kind of creating a scene and getting people to talk about him.

01:04:44: And again, Lava Mohedam I think he's interesting in the space.

01:04:47: but there is very much across over between longevity... ...and health span versus high performance because i see this quite as strong contradiction too.

01:05:01: for high-performance right what these athletes are doing regardless if being enhanced or not it on the razor edge.

01:05:08: someone like James Magnuson saying he can double his training load to what it was previously doing, all these kind of things.

01:05:14: A kind-of the opposite...

01:05:16: Of

01:05:17: What?

01:05:17: The one guy who says he doesn't want to die or you won't die is doing.

01:05:22: How do you stand in terms of the longevity argument versus high

01:05:28: performance?".

01:05:30: Yeah that's a good point.

01:05:31: I mean Like with it.

01:05:32: It's very fair.

01:05:34: Being an elite athlete Is just at home if you need to pay him right whether you're enhanced or not.

01:05:39: Being a gymnast at age fifteen, sixteen just has an impact on your longevity.

01:05:43: if you go to the Olympics like you are putting your body through something that is not healthy for you.

01:05:48: so that argument for me it's the same wether its with enhancements or not.

01:05:54: what difference though I think as i put myself thru that pain there that I support my recovery, that i support my tendons.

01:06:08: That is to put my XYZ in my body through the help of enhancements?

01:06:13: Yes it's not old school suffering way.

01:06:16: but Is there a way To have less of an impact on myself as person As am going for my professional careers and athlete which requires everything from me?

01:06:26: And theres A million stories out there From athletes their bodies how they are After you know career over twenty-twenty five years later.

01:06:34: Would their twenty, twenty-five years later position be a different one with the body that they're dealing with at sixty?

01:06:40: Be different had.

01:06:41: They have the opportunity to support their training regimen with enhancements To decrease the total that our body has to take as they go through that training.

01:06:49: Max is.

01:06:50: there are world when When you're sixty and your done With all of this That You ask yourself whether you actually Missed the point of overcoming the resistance fighting through, of being persistent and accepting where your limitations are.

01:07:14: Look I think once again right?

01:07:16: The enhancements don't make up for the fighting that you need to do.

01:07:21: You know like...I

01:07:22: Think thats why we differ.

01:07:25: because there is something in a mastery Like say Say you have an injury how did it come about?

01:07:32: Where is the source of the injury?

01:07:33: you're always treating a symptom but your never actually treating sauce and that's.

01:07:37: In my argument and through my sporting lens where mastery is created, it's true going to the motions and figuring out that Rubik's cube

01:07:48: one step at time.

01:07:48: maybe let me tell us an example.

01:07:50: when I was hiking with guys are wearing helmets.

01:07:53: they weren't wearing helmet back in the day because i think right?

01:07:57: And so you could say like, why don't we just suffer through a crash without the helmet?

01:08:01: Like he used to do back in the day.

01:08:03: The guys back and they did it.

01:08:05: Why do we today have to wear helmets?

01:08:07: It's just.

01:08:09: I know is-it's a funny example But i think it showcases the point of how as society their suffering through Doesn't change Just because wearing a helmet now.

01:08:19: So doesn't that changed?

01:08:20: You know like...I Think Lance on your head him on the show right.

01:08:25: Yeah was Lance not suffering?

01:08:27: No, of course he was.

01:08:29: And he wasn't a better writer than everyone else and He gave it more.

01:08:32: I mean you had freaking cancer and came back and did what?

01:08:36: You didn't.

01:08:36: that is remarkable right and i think we can all agree That the enhancements were not The reason why Lance was the rider that he was.

01:08:47: It Was much More Than that.

01:08:49: no because Everyone Else Was as well Enhanced.

01:08:52: Right People who tend to forget that it Was Not Just Lance Who was enhanced.

01:08:56: so Everyone Else was And so, no.

01:08:59: In my opinion they don't make up for it and you still to be at that absolute top level have to have the mindset in dedication The ability to suffer through it and push yourself to limits That No one else can because otherwise You Can't Be At The Top Just like Kobe Bryant.

01:09:12: Why was he such a good player?

01:09:13: Because He played more than anyone Else and trained harder.

01:09:16: why Was Tiger the best at golf?

01:09:17: because he had More contact with the golf ball Than every other player did.

01:09:22: It's just what it is.

01:09:22: True, but now you're dragging in samples that I don't think have anything to do with enhanced games.

01:09:28: Max genuinely i appreciate your openness To have this conversation.

01:09:32: um...it has been eye-opening for me doing the research For this and looking into it And seeing Your perspective as well.

01:09:40: Um Still gonna probably Have to beg to differ But That's fair enough!

01:09:44: I Don't Think we have to be on everything Uh..but I Do Appreciate You're Input On This Closing question, when is the last time that you went mental?

01:09:53: Good question.

01:09:55: I think i really liked how you defined it with the aggression piece of it You know like its brutal to it.

01:10:02: Ah let me think...I don't go mentally enough then.

01:10:05: maybe That's a good point but I think The Last Time we Went Mental was When We Did A Fund Raise A Few Weeks ago Where Over A Weekend Raised Fifty Million Dollars For Enhance.

01:10:17: We Listed It On New York Stock Exchange.

01:10:18: So We Did That a couple of weeks ago and that was quite the intense process, period of forty-eight hours for sure.

01:10:27: Thanks for coming on this show.

01:10:28: I really appreciate it!

01:10:29: Jan thank you so much.

01:10:30: all right everyone that is it season one is in The Books.

01:10:34: Thank You So Much For Being Part Of This Journey.

01:10:36: It Has Been A Steep Learning Curve From Me And i've well and truly enjoyed Going out there, hearing from some of the best people in their field and hearing what they're brilliant minds contributed to generally pretty physical performances.

01:10:51: Of course we had some truly mental guests in there To define what it really is to go mental And which part our beings are actually responsible for performance?

01:11:03: Is that mind or body?

01:11:04: as always It's a togetherness and play of two.

01:11:10: I think there were lots of interesting insights and i certainly learned a lot.

01:11:15: but if you have any input questions, feedback good or bad.I would love to hear from you.

01:11:22: we'll take uh little summer break such as most of southern europe might as well join them To Take Your Step Back And Reflect What Else Can We Do?

01:11:31: How Can We Make This Show Better What Different Formats Could Be?

01:11:34: Explore?

01:11:34: Of Course Finding New Guests That's Always The Big Challenge.

01:11:37: You're Having A Podcast but I am looking forward to taking on season two, Taking What We've Learned.

01:11:44: The latest episode is actually almost in the books already so don't worry we won't be away too far But will be gone for August and hope you get to enjoy a summer break as well.

01:11:58: Like i said write me reach out on Instagram or any of other platforms And we'll try and get As much feedback gathered as possible and build something cool together.

01:12:11: Thanks again for tuning in, enjoy your break until next

01:12:33: time!