Francesco Puppi: Logic, Pain, and the Reality of Ultra Running

00:00:00: And the fact that I was taken away from The Finish Line of Western State with a wheelchair doesn't mean That, uh...I didn't respect my body or I didn't Respect My Limit.

00:00:11: It Was Pretty Desperate!

00:00:14: The pain at some point Becomes Almost Unbearable.

00:00:17: More Than Anything i Think Called Running Is A Negotiation With Yourself and With Pain.

00:00:23: it Feels So Good To Say We Are So Back.

00:00:26: It Just Feels Really good Every Time.

00:00:29: Its A Vibe.

00:00:30: What a sad day for our sport, like we are all losing.

00:00:33: Winners were disqualified and in both circumstances I was second.

00:00:37: so... ...I was given the gold medal few months after the race.

00:00:42: And what is pain to you?

00:00:45: Is it a price...?

00:00:48: Is it

00:00:48: proof?...is

00:00:50: that

00:00:50: teacher?..

00:00:51: Your inner self, your personality and emotions?

00:00:54: because.. You truly understand type of person you're under difficult circumstance And it's crazy how you'd easily forget about the pain and discomfort after the race, but I want to remind myself that he was real.

00:01:09: He was uncomfortable.

00:01:25: Francesco!

00:01:26: So nice to see you.

00:01:28: Whenever we're talking in Italian... ...I'm always like, hey, ciao bello?

00:01:32: You write something back and Google this quickly so let me know what actually means.

00:01:38: Oh man….

00:01:39: Madai.

00:01:41: A quick intro my guest today Ran a one-twenty nine half marathon at thirteen and he has run all his life.

00:01:53: Nine days ago, you finished second at his first Western States And then wrote about it arguably better than most journalists ever could.

00:02:01: His trail running philosophy the man who argues against suffering and then digs deeper Than anyone I know He shows called going further mines coin called Going Mental.

00:02:14: Francesco Bopi, let's settle this.

00:02:16: How are you my friend?

00:02:17: Good!

00:02:18: I'm excited to talk with you.

00:02:19: it feels like such a privilege in your podcast and talking to an Olympic champion and athlete of your caliber.

00:02:28: What do you

00:02:29: mean?!

00:02:30: You're a legend everybody would agree.

00:02:35: so yeah i just have respect for people who've done incredible things.

00:02:43: So, well let me say I have a lot of respect for you and how are able to tackle this new hobby that i've decided to undertake of trail running.

00:02:55: It is very impressive when you move and really enjoyed seeing the new facet of running.

00:03:05: but before we get into anything traditionally after start with this When You Hear Going Mental This show will be called Puppy Going Mental.

00:03:15: What does that mean to you?

00:03:18: I think going mental, to me means that... ...I'm trying to go deeper into whatever i am doing whether it's running or other things but like trying to get beyond the surface level narrative many times we tell ourselves and what is here most of the time from other people and go to the roots.

00:03:51: In this case, what it's like to be an athlete?

00:03:53: What is likely?

00:03:55: work for a goal achieve performance train at high level.

00:04:02: I think there are lots potential in going mental because if you can access sometimes untapped potential that you have within yourself, it can be very powerful.

00:04:18: If you can confront with not only your strength but also your fears and weaknesses or your most raw and deeper emotions... It's super-super-powerful!

00:04:35: You've been running all of life for twenty plus years.

00:04:41: What what are you still looking for?

00:04:46: I mean, my story.

00:04:49: My journey is a it's the story of progression.

00:04:53: so i'm constantly looking for ways to improve as an athlete and uh... Oftentimes people ask me, but what is your motivation to go out training?

00:05:17: But I reframe the question and say... To go out-training is the motivation.

00:05:23: That's enough for me to be motivated to put in work And see if my next easy run will finally feel decent.

00:05:40: You know, the magic happens.

00:05:44: So I think you're constantly kind of chasing that feeling of freedom and efficiency... ...and just being in right place at a right time.

00:05:53: That only running can give you.

00:05:55: so to me it's huge motivation To continue putting into work And get better.

00:06:02: It

00:06:02: is amazing because i feel like especially in running.. ..it is such a deserved moment when everything clicks Like no one starts running and feels good for at least, I don't know weeks.

00:06:15: Weeks before even if you are looking at the progression And You can see that you feel a little bit better.

00:06:20: but that actual feeling of For me it's floating because my surface That i choose is generally The road and they're not Even close to getting any flow on Any trail?

00:06:31: Trying To read the rocks which goes where.

00:06:34: But It's A well-deserved Feeling right?

00:06:38: yeah For sure.

00:06:39: I would say running is not an activity that gives you immediate satisfaction.

00:06:43: if you ride your bike, uh You can still really enjoy it even If you are out of shape or even if you haven't picked up your bike for a while.

00:06:53: Uh with running It doesn't really work That way you have to put in A lot of hours before you feel kind Of decent on the road Or On the trail

00:07:02: and With that i mean its Work.

00:07:06: you have done all your life and, y'know... You've run obviously competitively for such a long time.

00:07:13: Does it ever stay or become playful still?

00:07:18: Less and less so like its uh.. Become harder to me.

00:07:24: romanticize every aspect of running & training I guess when especially after running became my full-time activity.

00:07:35: But it's not because I love running less.

00:07:38: It is just that my relationship with running has evolved and objectively, I run so much that... ...it's hard to feel excited motivated and very keen on going out running twice a day every single day.

00:07:58: So yeah!

00:08:00: Its still fun especially when i share with other people or friends.

00:08:05: When I travel to a new place, it's always exciting to discover like new mountains and trails.

00:08:13: That is an aspect of trail running that I love.

00:08:16: Noplace is the same.

00:08:20: The feeling of chasing adventure and discovering a place Is still huge motivation for me.

00:08:28: But on their hand there are also structure training the necessity to perform, do your workouts to respect intensity or whatever.

00:08:38: that kind of keeps some constraints and doesn't always allow you have full freedom to do what ever want when you are out running.

00:08:52: So yeah it's a little bit of both.

00:08:55: I think trail-running is very interesting because from how i see a performance board and an outdoor sport that is more oriented towards the environment, nature adventure feeling.

00:09:18: Performance boards are maybe like my background where I come from running in track and field we place emphasis on splits times intensity hard trade data.

00:09:31: We leave little less room to.

00:09:35: You know feelings and sensations an adventure, but I really like the balance that i've achieved To not be overly focused on performance.

00:09:46: But also to not be Just about you know having fun in the mountains and playing in the Mountains.

00:09:53: it's a fine balance because from The outside you say?

00:09:54: You know your focus on splits then you focus on intensity And you're quite well known In the trail running world.

00:10:00: i think we should quickly go out there.

00:10:02: for all the listeners who are not a hundred percent familiar with.

00:10:06: The various distances because you have sort of middle distance running, which used to do... You have a decent marathon time as well and as in road marathon, Which is your background?

00:10:18: Is that correct?

00:10:19: Yeah!

00:10:20: That's my background.

00:10:21: And then you went too To kind of ultra-running which by definition anything over a marathon and then recently went to run a hundred miles for the first time, which seems absolutely crazy.

00:10:38: My favorite post of this is actually your step count from that day!

00:10:42: Something like one hundred fifty six thousand steps or something?

00:10:45: Yeah

00:10:46: if you had asked Jim Wamsley to share his Step Count it would probably be like fifty thousand steps left less than mine but I I take tiny steps.

00:11:02: Yeah, well that may well be but your result speaks for itself.

00:11:05: so i think it's each one of us is very individual.

00:11:11: So i'm looking for the kind of contrast because you say you are focused on the performance You're focussed on the intensity and finding let's call it scientific part still finding the joy in the actual trails.

00:11:33: And I always found that training is really, really hard until it's just fun.

00:11:41: Is there something you can relate to when things click into place?

00:11:45: When things become really easy because they are just focusing and those two worlds marry up

00:11:51: like even at your...when you reach a level of fitness To just have fun with the training that you're doing.

00:12:00: Well, it's funny It's not.

00:12:02: I wouldn't even connect at only to a level of fitness.

00:12:04: but also like when your surroundings and everything Just kind of falls into place right because you have your team is your coach Is Your high school buddy?

00:12:13: Right?

00:12:13: is that?

00:12:14: is that right?

00:12:15: i've had my coach for twelve years so we met.

00:12:20: uh...I mean actually It was during my university years, right after high school.

00:12:26: So but yeah I've been with him for a long time

00:12:29: and so i always found like that basically once everything clicks into place And your surroundings are feeling really good That this joy is probably the feelings we have looked at most.

00:12:44: Joy not in the sense of Yes, this is fantastic celebrating kind of thing but a sense of fulfillment.

00:12:50: You know being tired from the work you asked for that kind of things where just... The puzzle comes together and the matrix sort-of solves itself almost.

00:13:01: Yeah I can relate.

00:13:03: It's more like a senseless satisfaction and fulfillment than actual fun because it's hard to say that training is fun or running one hundred miles fun, because it involves a lot of pain and huge effort.

00:13:20: So even my coach during Western State asked me if I was having fun?

00:13:27: And actually I wasn't able to answer.

00:13:29: but i think he just wanted to bring back the very reason why we were there.

00:13:33: We had chosen to be here.

00:13:36: so take me back choice to that reason why I had chosen to run Western States, to challenge myself with the distance and that competition.

00:13:49: For me it was... The right thing at a right time when in a moment It was probably my eighty or something That was really hurting and struggling.

00:14:00: And yeah i think is very important ask yourself Why you're doing what's your doing?

00:14:07: If You are able give yourself.

00:14:11: That's where the joy, fulfillment comes from.

00:14:13: But

00:14:13: if it is not fun what was your why in that moment?

00:14:19: I mean running a hundred miles... It still like a privilege Like something i had chosen and put so much work for And its'nt just my own effort but its shared efforts especially with my girlfriend and partner, Gloria.

00:14:47: I feel like she supported me so much throughout this preparation... ...and she's made a lot of sacrifices to basically prioritize my training and my goals, my ambitions.

00:15:01: So i wanted it not just for myself but also the people around me And try to give back to the people who were accruing me and following me, some of their support that they've given me.

00:15:20: So I really felt that during the race And hopefully was able give them a fun experience Some entertainment for the people at home!

00:15:33: I definitely kept quite few people awake through night because here in Italy it's like maybe two or three in morning when i finished.

00:15:45: That was fun.

00:15:46: Yeah, thirty now is fifty one before you asked yourself the question publicly Do I love this sport or do?

00:15:54: I love what it gives me.

00:15:57: Have you got?

00:15:57: have you found an answer?

00:15:58: Uh mean i guess It's a little bit of both.

00:16:01: I do love running.

00:16:03: Running is uh part Of my identity has always been Part of part of who I am since I was a little child.

00:16:12: so I can't really separate my identity from being a runner and athlete.

00:16:19: But I think it would be a lie to say that doing what i'm doing just for the joy of running, you know?

00:16:30: The feeling brings me... Everybody wants to be recognized And likes to be.

00:16:38: To some extent You enjoy being celebrated and appreciated For what you achieve.

00:16:43: So I think It's very human-feeling.

00:16:46: We, as people we want to feel loved and appreciated by other people.

00:16:52: So you tend to enjoy more those activities that bring you that recognition in popularity I guess.

00:17:01: so it's a little bit of both if i have to be honest.

00:17:05: No its great!

00:17:06: I mean...I appreciate the honours.. I think there is something for most athletes when they look at some world famous musicians who were only recognized after their career, and they spent hours and days and years on the craft.

00:17:21: And really now are the most celebrated classical musicians of all time.

00:17:28: I'm just wondering...I don't think it would be that good a person to stick with my craft for purity!

00:17:35: That's why i can very much relate.

00:17:40: The reality is we do what?

00:17:44: not just because we love it, but the product of different things.

00:17:57: It's an interest and talent, but also opportunities that you get, recognition... many things coming together somehow pushes towards one path or another.

00:18:16: Yeah,

00:18:16: because when you and I actually met was Paris at the Paris Half-Marathon.

00:18:22: And we were there running for Hoca... ...and just sort of a group of Jim Walsh who was there as well with few others that were meant to run the half marathon.

00:18:37: Just in the activities around We would discuss how much this sport has changed.

00:18:42: Right when you started and it was really just this grassroots kind of thing people went running either because They had to try and lose some weight or there were just a few kinds of lone wolves who enjoyed the activities in the mountain announced become such a Hip, and very cool.

00:19:01: Thing to do with its all-of-a-sudden cool to be seen running right.

00:19:05: but if we're honest It's kind of the same motivation right?

00:19:07: It's just the recognition that is given through through sport.

00:19:14: Yeah, it's just a perception that has changed and I used to be the weirdo of The Village where i grew up And now everything makes sense and you know yeah people who...I guess they celebrate me.

00:19:34: whenever They see my out running they wave at me but It wasn't the case You know fifteen or twenty years ago.

00:19:44: So the perception has completely changed and that's good.

00:19:48: That is progress, I think.

00:19:51: Yeah so running is probably the most democratic sport And more people do it better because i think It does help for everyone to do some exercise sometime in a while Every now.

00:20:02: then we talked about this quickly before recording.

00:20:06: You are just under two weeks out.

00:20:09: You said you're only allowed to run two or three times.

00:20:13: What does it take to recover from a hundred mile kind of effort?

00:20:17: I don't know, i still need to find out.

00:20:18: It's my first hundred-mileer.

00:20:19: so until my recovery time is over... ...I cannot tell you for sure but lots of sleep uh.. I wasn't really able to sleep For at least three nights after the race and traveling back to Europe A couple of days after the race was not ideal.

00:20:40: The flight back to Europe wasn't fun, you can imagine how sore my legs were and just how tired I was.

00:20:52: but i'm starting to feel better.

00:20:55: it's taking me... I would say nine or ten days To feel a bit better.

00:21:02: And uh..I think Yeah!

00:21:06: The motivation restart moving and training will be back very soon.

00:21:13: And that's probably a sign, you're ready to go back through more structured training... ...and move on the next thing or goal?

00:21:27: So yeah!

00:21:28: Probably by next week I'll talk with my coach about how we moved from here.

00:21:35: Yeah i remember having some time off where nobody You know, I'd just be like no don't touch me.

00:21:41: Don't call me leaving alone and i'm just going to do my thing.

00:21:43: but I did have a secret recovery session or secret.

00:21:46: well...I just had a standard recovery session.

00:21:48: that would always do.

00:21:50: Do you have anything?

00:21:50: That you liked to do after a race?

00:21:53: Or is it literally just going for walk Going for ride Going for ice cream Anything any go-to's?

00:22:00: Normally I try to join My girlfriend For her easy runs or something.

00:22:08: But actually, it's hard for me to really take time off and prioritize time for myself.

00:22:18: I just tend to fill my time in days with different things and activities.

00:22:24: And for example all the things that I postponed... ...that was not able do during preparation because obviously I focused on training.

00:22:34: there wasn't much room or anything else.

00:22:36: so Yeah, I'm trying to keep a balance in between the recovery.

00:22:45: And unless I intentionally save some time for recovery it won't come back like you know week from now with restart training and then its on.

00:23:00: but i also think is important too take time to reflect.

00:23:10: Yeah, also celebrate a little bit this achievement because it was important for me and my career.

00:23:17: And especially considering how difficult the build-up of these preparations were in different reasons... The injuries I've had earlier this year felt particularly meaningful so i want to take some time to talk them all up and feel good about it.

00:23:44: Yeah, I mean...I'm sure you've talked about it on several running specific podcasts but i would like to go into sharing how really your preparation was not perfect right?

00:23:59: You talk about structure or you talk about a physicist having a plan And you had to deviate from this plan many times!

00:24:07: That's something that athletes runner astride leads.

00:24:12: anybody can really relate to.

00:24:14: Take us a little bit into the details of The Journey, how you actually got to the start line?

00:24:18: Yeah so The Journey started last year after I won CCC at UTMB Mont Blanc in Chamonix because that's where i got the golden ticket and decided to accept the challenge and compete at Western States this year.

00:24:36: So the western states is a qualifying event similar to UTMB And then it has its own qualifying system, right?

00:24:45: Yes exactly.

00:24:45: You can either answer through a lottery but is really hard But for elite athletes there's A system with six Golden ticket races that you can qualify for For Western States and the top two of these six world-class races like CCC or Black Canyon, other hundred K to a hundred mile races qualify you for Western States.

00:25:16: So it's small pool of editatis actually that gets selected with this system.

00:25:23: but yeah basically I won the Golden Decade last year and with my coach we decided that Western State would be to try to chase.

00:25:39: And then the actual preparation started.

00:25:41: after my last season, so towards the end of twenty-twenty five and then early actually January twenty twenty six I did a training camp in Flagstaff with Jim Wumsley.

00:25:54: i was getting ready for a race in Arizona that is called Black Canyon.

00:25:59: That's where things started to deviate from my plans because During the race, I fell and dislocated my shoulder.

00:26:07: I was forced to drop out.

00:26:09: so obviously big disappointment that it was very fit... ...and i'm ready for that race but ended up in a DNF.

00:26:19: So actually when I met you in Paris.. ..I had just recovered from that And I think my shoulders were still a bit painful.

00:26:26: But basically half marathon I ran in Paris.

00:26:28: It's first real workout after Black Canyon in mid-February And from there, I had another good race at the Chianti Marathon in Italy that I won with a new course record.

00:26:44: But right after that...

00:26:46: Yeah?

00:26:46: I have to interrupt you for all those who are into running.

00:26:49: please go and find the video of Francesco running the wrong way if it's Chiantii Marathon!

00:26:55: It literally looks like somebody is running on a mountain three minutes per kilometer and absolutely flying the wrong way and then turning around.

00:27:04: And still winning with a course record!

00:27:06: We took our own turn, I think it was kilometer... I don't know, forty?

00:27:12: Uh…I had just gotten a little gap over Daniel Patti's second athlete and basically lost all of my time but then i'm able to get away in win.

00:27:29: Yeah, that performance gave me a huge confidence and the big boost.

00:27:33: but unfortunately right after that when it was still recovering from the race I Was hiking in the mountains near my home And i fell on the ic trails.

00:27:44: And uh...I broke My right wrist.

00:27:49: It was pretty bad.

00:27:50: fracture required surgery.

00:27:52: so yeah..i was In hospital for few days had successful surgery.

00:27:58: But then, you know Surgery is pretty stressful and It's painful.

00:28:05: You don't really sleep.

00:28:06: it affects your training And for a long time that was in April For a long I was not feeling good in training.

00:28:16: I was NOT responding to training right when i had To Put into work or Western States?

00:28:25: That Was the final block of my preparation so that if I wasn't able to do the long runs and the workouts, yeah.

00:28:44: If you're racing a hundred mile race... You need to be properly prepared!

00:28:49: And i was going for with goal too learn but also perform.

00:29:04: talked about with my coach was that I could not afford to get injured during the race because of a less than ideal preparation.

00:29:16: So we told ourselves, providing that I was able show up on the start line healthy enough and feed enough to handle the distance... ...I would give it a try!

00:29:30: And then luckily in final month's preparation I felt way better.

00:29:36: And, uh...I was able to put together some decent workouts and long runs.

00:29:42: that gave me the confidence that i could compete not just finish your race..and yeah then the race was very successful.

00:29:50: but for me it was really difficult to hold together all this uncertainty and you know constantly having to adjust the plans like fear really, really bad in training for a really long time.

00:30:09: Whenever you're used to certain feelings and sensations And You suddenly lose that your body can't even handle the little stress of one hour easy run It's hard.

00:30:29: it's hard when your body does not respond to training.

00:30:34: Yeah I guess mentally every athlete knows it's not easy to be in that situation.

00:30:41: So I was struggling for a very long time, and the perspective of even being at that start line is sometimes very far.

00:30:50: but then... ...I tried always give myself a chance to try make it And i'm glad they did because things worked out pretty nicely.

00:31:03: It's fascinating how even after professional athletes we have so much of a clue how the body works and how everything functions.

00:31:12: And yet we almost expect that, well it's only my wrist I need my legs to run... ...and we omit the fact all our resources really seem.. ..to take energy from the same bucket!

00:31:27: There is really whether you are stressed for any reason at all anywhere in your body And this is something very common in triathlon as well.

00:31:37: You know, if somebody has a foot injury and they're like oh wow that should be swimming so much better than before because I'm not doing the running but it doesn't work that way

00:31:44: right?

00:31:45: Yeah!

00:31:45: The metaphor of the bucket is pretty powerful i think... Unfortunately there's stress that doesn't come from.

00:31:55: training does allow you to build fitness Because then people who are under A huge lot of stress would be Olympic champions, you know?

00:32:03: But it doesn't work that way.

00:32:06: And by the way your body handles distress and processes... The stress that comes from different areas in life is actually as I said It comes form same bucket.

00:32:23: so You have limited resources to deal with this stress.

00:32:30: And if you're employing a lot of resources to handle the stress from surgery and risk fracture, that same resource won't be available for training.

00:32:44: That's why your affected.

00:32:49: many times you pretend like these external factors are not a factor but they are, affecting you and... You can either come to terms with it or I guess just dig yourself a deeper hole.

00:33:16: Then things get even more difficult.

00:33:18: So then you have this journey which is far from ideal somehow piece the puzzle together And every time we have great results at least What I found, we are so back.

00:33:33: We're so back seems to be one of your favorite sayings.

00:33:37: you tell me about it?

00:33:38: Tell me where does this come from?

00:33:39: were so back.

00:33:41: i mean It feels So good To Say We Are So Back and it Works for Like You Can Say For Every Circumstance like You Come Back From an Injury You can Say We're So Back.

00:33:56: But You know You Comeback And Win a race and you can say we're so back like it just feels really good every time.

00:34:06: So It's a vibe.

00:34:10: It is a five.

00:34:11: I liked the vibe, and I'd like to we because You mentioned before?

00:34:16: The team that people behind in.

00:34:17: obviously if we see it so often but it its quite peculiar at such A long endurance event where really you are, you know the heart and soul.

00:34:30: You credit your team pretty much every time

00:34:33: because I know it would not be possible without the Support system around me.

00:34:38: Without people are on me For the attention and care, and time they dedicate to myself.

00:34:51: And yes It's true that This is running isn't lonely sport like you spend a lot of times A lot of time in your own head with your own thoughts and emotions.

00:35:04: But at the end of the day, you also realize the importance... ...of people around and especially for a race like Western States where crewing is absolutely critical.

00:35:17: Crew

00:35:18: it because basically at the aid stations they help you refill?

00:35:22: What's your job as the crew?

00:35:25: Basically to help with nutrition hydration.

00:35:31: cooling strategies are also... important.

00:35:34: during western states that normally is a very warm race.

00:35:37: We were lucky this year, it was the third coolest here in Western States history.

00:35:45: so... That's another factor that allowed for such historically fast times because basically top four athletes all went under the old course record from Jim Wamsley.

00:36:05: But yeah, your crew they basically help you move forward.

00:36:11: And it's not just about the eight stations?

00:36:15: Yes yes You only see your crew at eight stations because the race is actually pretty remote and you don't actually see many people unless except that there are eight stations.

00:36:30: It may be hard to describe but The role of the crew is pretty fundamental and it also helps you like mentally.

00:36:41: It really helps you break the race into smaller chunks And You try to tell yourself just get to the next stage stations.

00:36:49: because I mean running a hundred miles Brace feels almost impossible, especially when you are at a hundred K mark and used...you have like sixty k to go.

00:37:01: Sixty-K is...I mean this long distance.

00:37:05: You're so tired and you don't know how you can possibly cover that distance.

00:37:10: And, just looking forward to see your crew at the next stage station then... ...you will figure it out from there….

00:37:20: …and also get confidence in energy of your crew.

00:37:25: So its very important for someone who you trust and respect.

00:37:34: Yeah!

00:37:34: Someone gives a hand I can imagine, because in your race report you even said as you were leading when you went into the lead for first time and came to one of the eight stations.

00:37:51: You are shedding a tear or two while leading arguably the biggest most historical race.

00:38:02: where does that come from?

00:38:03: Yeah i don't know That's right.

00:38:09: Because I had put myself in a very difficult and uncomfortable situation that I didn't know how to handle without...I don't know, How To Handle Alone?

00:38:21: And mentally it felt impossible.

00:38:25: just move forward at the same... Just keep the pace you know Move Forward At The Same Speed And Get The Job Done because i was so tired.

00:38:38: Yeah, the pain at some point becomes almost unbearable.

00:38:43: And more than anything I think alter-running is a negotiation with yourself and with pain... ...and you have to be willing to explore that pain cave in order to To be successful or at least that's how it is for me i think.

00:39:04: uh i rely a lot on that because i know maybe a couple of days, like some special occasions I'm able to tap into this potential and dig extremely deep.

00:39:24: And actually after i finished the race they had to take me to the entire doping tent with a wheelchair because it was not even able to walk.

00:39:36: for

00:39:43: I mean, i can only imagine that begs the question.

00:39:46: What is pain to you?

00:39:48: Is it a price ?

00:39:51: Is it proof ?

00:39:53: Is It A Teacher ?

00:39:54: That's a feeling!

00:39:55: Its hard to describe and give definition of Pain because its multi-factorial.

00:40:02: It doesn't just have physical origin but... The way you perceive and feel the pain.

00:40:12: also crucial And I don't know, it can come in different flavors.

00:40:20: The pain of an eight hundred meter race or even a triathlon race is different from the pain of one-hundred mile races and throughout my athletic career i've explored different kinds of pains.

00:40:39: they're all very different than somewhat interesting to explore.

00:40:44: Yeah, it's.

00:40:44: uh.

00:40:54: It's also uncomfortable because yeah You have to be willing to accept the go through a very uncomfortable situation in order to To handle that pain and confront yourself with The fear of not making Not making it something interesting.

00:41:12: is that?

00:41:13: the pain that you go through exposes your Your inner self like your personality and emotions.

00:41:21: Because You truly understand the type of person you are under difficult circumstances, and especially when you're under a lot of pain.

00:41:33: It's easy to move forward or make decisions When things are easy And feeling in control

00:41:44: it is

00:41:45: much harder than when you feel uncomfortable Under great deal of pain.

00:41:50: So I think that can teach you.

00:41:52: Yeah, that's what I mean.

00:41:54: Very often it is considered the price of admission to be a professional athlete and you can deal with it or manage it.

00:42:00: And i found this to be different Or time related in my career.

00:42:06: Sometimes It was also proof for myself That I could have been hard-ass and dealt with pain.

00:42:12: The older I got more of teacher became because if don't respect wrong pain on foot or Achilles it will teach me less far beyond.

00:42:23: Yeah, I think you as You grow older and more experienced.

00:42:27: You learn to respect the pain your back to your body and Understand that there are different types of pain.

00:42:35: And uh?

00:42:36: It unnecessarily have two lean into into it all the time.

00:42:42: But you understand when it's like a healthy pain and what is not.

00:42:47: and yeah also don't want too Contribute to the narrative of like no pain again because I think it's Like what i stand for is completely opposite.

00:42:59: I'm All four respecting my limits and my body.

00:43:06: And the fact that uh, I Was taken away from the finish line up off western state with a wheelchair doesn't mean that Uh, I didn't respect my body or I didn' t respect my limit.

00:43:19: It was like.

00:43:21: on the contrary he was more like I gave everything.

00:43:25: and uh, i'm really proud of that.

00:43:27: but That performance came had its origin from understanding my limits.

00:43:37: Understanding the pain And this comfort that was going through rather than trying to just push through it.

00:43:47: well arguably if they would have picked you up at a hundred forty case with wheelshare then You would've not respected your limits You know, in terms of the thing.

00:43:55: But this is what I find really interesting following your journey and following you readings.

00:43:59: Is that you?

00:44:00: Of course Your heart and passion is with running but you sometimes make comments And i think This one was uh related to to Lindsay von and The crash where he said That In society we very much glorify Endurance sports at all costs and superseding an overcoming These these kind of hardships Refuse to appreciate the lucidity of stopping.

00:44:30: I really, like...I absolutely love this but in some sense you are confronted with it In every single performance right?

00:44:39: Because if you stop at first signals or when You described how hard that journey is Then will not make into finish line

00:44:48: exactly.

00:44:49: and sometimes i ask myself the pain, the sacrifice.

00:44:54: The hard times that I go through?

00:44:58: I don't know...I think it remains a question that i cannot really answer or like.

00:45:04: more than anything..i don't think the achievement can offset what you go to during your preparation so You might as well just try to enjoy and have a good time enjoyable and fun as possible, but not think that by achieving something you will offset all the pain negative feelings and sacrifices that you went through.

00:45:37: But yeah I think this goes back a little bit to where we started like the narrative around endurance sport The celebration of hardship and heroic efforts And, yeah.

00:45:56: Being able to cover your feelings and weaknesses.

00:46:01: but I think you...I mean it's not by trying harder that i become more successful at what I do.

00:46:15: It is actually learning how hold back being patient respecting my body which a little bit counterintuitive But its the reality.

00:46:29: So yeah, it's probably something yet that other athletes could confirm.

00:46:37: Yeah absolutely I mean It's...I've heard many great coaches say my biggest challenge is to hold back my athletes too To kind of manage their effort.

00:46:47: and the same way that you said You are only allowed to run two or three times this week shows again There..it's kind of this forever trying to fill every void with exercise, with sessions.

00:47:00: With training... I think that's very much an endurance athlete kind of thing..I don't know many team sports or ball sports where i've met athletes who are just absolutely going crazy if they're not allowed to train in extra few hours have you?

00:47:23: Yeah for sure yeah.

00:47:27: ten years ago My relationship with the sport and running especially was not as good at it is now, I understand the importance of recovery in respect to my body.

00:47:44: It's less so maybe ten or fifteen years ago but luckily i've grown a little bit wiser right?

00:47:57: You faced some things... I really want to touch on this, and hope you're okay-to-go there.

00:48:04: That... You've had two of your biggest wins in your career taken away from or handed over by you at hindsight!

00:48:15: And i don't know if you know Martin Foucault the french biathlete?

00:48:22: One my all time favourite social media posts is when he took his Olympic silver medal and he put it in an envelope, threw into a normal postbox saying return to sender.

00:48:32: He sent back the IOC to get his gold

00:48:34: medal.".

00:48:37: That's happened to you twice!

00:48:41: Take me into the world of somebody who has put all this work... ...has gone through all emotions but never appreciated that way?

00:48:57: goes back to your why, what you do and if it's only for the recognition of appreciation from other people or achievements then that is probably a wrong motivation.

00:49:14: I think i was able come into terms and accept those situations because to me these days regardless still felt like really good days, really good performances and days where I was able to do my best.

00:49:42: To produce the best effort And also share again with a support team around me My coach and partner So that feeling remains intact regardless of how things played out after the race.

00:50:08: You know, both at the twenty seventeen Mountain Running World Championship and the twenty-twenty three OCC at UTMB The winners were disqualified And in both circumstances I was second.

00:50:22: so i was given the gold medal a few months After the Race.

00:50:31: Yeah, sometimes you think about the opportunities that you lose and the recognition that you don't get.

00:50:36: but I mean honestly it's not very important.

00:50:41: And i've also found that You know Sometimes people have the wrong expectations That A win a performance if you just achieve uh?

00:50:57: that breakthrough victory It's gonna change your life.

00:51:00: But yes, it does change a little bit.

00:51:05: You pretty much remain the same person and people around you will love you no matter what.

00:51:12: And it's true, we can make some difference for your sponsors or media... ...for their popularity as an athlete for sure.

00:51:28: but that is probably not the most important thing.

00:51:30: It definitely isn't the main reason why I do this.

00:51:33: So i think thats why was able to move forward and move past those not so pleasant situations.

00:51:46: Yeah, but if you go back to twenty seventeen that's nine years I mean... You weren't.

00:51:51: who are now in terms of established as one?

00:51:55: the greats of trail running take me into the motion world like genuinely i wonder what happens when you receive news.

00:52:03: is it?

00:52:03: you know, glorious like champagne celebration?

00:52:08: or is it more

00:52:09: sadness?

00:52:11: Really.

00:52:14: First thing that comes to mind what a sad day for our sport.

00:52:17: we are all losing I think hopefully most of the time.

00:52:21: cheaters got caught and the entire opening system can do its job and protect the sport and protect its integrity.

00:52:31: but Whenever someone is cheating, we're all losing because the credibility and this spirit of fair competition takes a hit I guess.

00:52:46: So yeah... The prevalent feeling is sadness And that the fact that their memory from today has somehow ruined It doesn't really think about what it could have been if if I had been the first one to cross that finish line or anything, it's mostly disappointment and sadness.

00:53:15: Which is interesting because you said the memory is intact.

00:53:20: your performance as such stands And again i wish this upon no-one.

00:53:26: but of course when a situation arises...I've genuinely been curious.

00:53:31: Is it a sense of justice, which I think is what very much was for Martin?

00:53:36: Yeah.

00:53:36: There's this sense of justice i guess... ...I also wish he hadn't happened to be honest.

00:53:44: Of course yeah!

00:53:45: So in retrospect I'm now the winner of those two races but.. ..I don't think they changed that much trajectory my career.

00:53:59: Yeah, yeah.

00:53:59: I mean the wisdom of hindsight...I would agree.

00:54:01: it's just purely from an emotional standpoint you know?

00:54:04: It kind of is something that i still see lives in a lot of athletes' heads and gets a certain suspicion when somebody has a jump in performance.

00:54:15: And yeah!

00:54:16: It seems like genuinely as you rightly describe it A bit of a nightmare scenario In terms.

00:54:26: Yeah, having your memory and everybody else's thought of the race tarnished in a way.

00:54:37: Anyways... I mean it is something that really gets me thinking about people's perceptions and peoples ideas.

00:54:50: And you put something on your social media About your western states where there was river crossing And you decided to take three and a half seconds... ...to put on the life vest, pull yourself across the river.

00:55:09: Joe and Karin from The Comfort of their armchair at home felt all sorts of needs to comment on this!

00:55:19: I wonder if there's ever something useful that you've learned from people's mockeries?

00:55:24: Something

00:55:24: useful?!

00:55:26: Mostly it is just.

00:55:29: I think mostly.

00:55:30: it just shows that social media is not a good place to have debate.

00:55:35: And sometimes, they learned the hard way by making mistakes and getting myself in pretty awkward or uncomfortable situations on social media and getting backlash and whatnot.

00:55:51: but...I don't know!

00:55:57: commenting every time, even when they don't understand what you're seeing.

00:56:05: Yeah I mean many times maybe they think that they can understand but it's not actually the case.

00:56:14: so... It was just a little bit frustrating especially at that river crossing after seventy-eight miles of running and really tired because You don't want to waste energy swimming across the river, you just want to drag yourself with a rope and let your legs float and rest for twenty seconds.

00:56:42: I probably wouldn't have gotten out like honestly after seventy-eight miles i would be hanging there.

00:56:46: The waters are presumably cooler as well.

00:56:49: It's pretty heavenly place.

00:56:52: Yeah exactly.

00:56:54: Sometimes it feels a little bit frustrating.

00:56:59: I try to resist the urge to respond to comments, but every once in a while i do respond.

00:57:07: Yeah!

00:57:08: It's interesting because like you said... You're a trained physicist and think clearly about running.

00:57:15: You think of all these motivations.

00:57:18: And somehow ...you find yourself still caught on this very classical negativity bias finding one or two people rather than appreciating the thousands that pour out in their support.

00:57:35: Yeah, it's pretty normal to be human where we're all affected by this negativity bias and sure I can make mistakes.

00:57:46: maybe put on a life vest at that river crossing was not the most ideal thing in terms of efficiency you know to save time.

00:58:00: In retrospect, I don't think it was a mistake.

00:58:02: We lost a little bit of time because the volunteers weren't ready to give me their left jacket immediately when asked for it and... But yeah!

00:58:16: You lose fifteen seconds over fourteen hours of racing.

00:58:25: No, again.

00:58:27: I think the point is not whether that decision was right or not and not even when you make this same decision next time.

00:58:33: it's just where there are sometimes... You know?

00:58:36: ...I've had a few debates And one of two them around typical topics like endurance sports and anti-doping measures Or something like these Where i actually have somebody who leaned in and very much had joined the voice of The Crowd, but then became very constructive.

00:58:58: Which is a huge exception I understand... ...but it was a rare moment where i just thought maybe there's something positive or you have an example like this!

00:59:09: But not in that case.

00:59:14: Francesco?

00:59:15: You are now recovering.

00:59:17: I guess Chamonix is next Big thing for you, or what's on your calendar?

00:59:25: Yeah.

00:59:25: Technically it is the OCC at UTMB if I feel good enough to put together a few weeks of training after I recovered from Western States and will see there.

00:59:42: now that You just said It i'm not sure I should be There!

00:59:44: I mean...I'll See you before And maybe see you afterwards But definitely won't see during.

00:59:48: Oh come one..you have To raise That One.

00:59:52: Yeah, I am very curious to see it.

00:59:57: It's something that has driven my curiosity towards the sport and seeing something different seems like a mecca for trail runners... I look forward to seeing you there!

01:00:09: Francesco?

01:00:12: When is your last time went mental?

01:00:14: Probably during Western States.

01:00:18: You spend alot of time in your head with your own thoughts and yeah, it was really hard.

01:00:32: So maybe the

01:00:36: hardest

01:00:37: experience I've ever had in life... And it's crazy how you easily forget about the pain and discomfort after the race.

01:00:48: but i want to remind myself that he is real.

01:00:57: Yeah, I hope I can do it again even if i'm not sure.

01:01:03: Why you want to remind yourself?

01:01:06: Because It was real like give myself credit for what he did because He is just really hard and yeah there's no other way to put it.

01:01:18: Yeah that's a...it's really interesting and fascinating too hear your thoughts and your perspective, I thank you very much for being so open and honest in sharing it.

01:01:30: And yeah... I look forward to seeing you inflict more pain on others at OCC!

01:01:39: Hopefully some of the good stuff for yourself.

01:01:41: Shorter but not necessarily less painful.

01:01:44: So we'll see.

01:01:46: Yeah that's old saying right?

01:01:47: It never hurts less You only go faster

01:02:06: by OMR.