Why Success Feels Empty at the Top - Scott DeRue

00:00:00: People here going mental as losing control and I just can't handle it anymore.

00:00:05: For me, It's the opposite of actually becoming even more centered And more purposeful in a chaos around

00:00:12: you.

00:00:13: your path went more along the lines of studying leadership Going into a classic academia career.

00:00:21: now You've come to lead The sport of triathlon

00:00:26: one day One course Ohana.

00:00:30: Probably

00:00:30: one of the most high-pressure filled jobs in endurance world.

00:00:35: For me, it was education that changed my life.

00:00:39: going to The University North Carolina at Chapel Hill opened my eyes To what was possible in the world.

00:00:44: You know ten p.m.. At night the winds howling you don't know What the weather is gonna be like at twenty nine thousand feet and you've got to make a judgment call.

00:00:53: Where does that line come?

00:00:55: In That you stop studying and actually go with that call.

00:01:00: I had lifetime job security, literally the protection of a federal judge could not be fired!

00:01:06: The result may be the reward but it's not the reason... What is worse than what will happen?

00:01:12: There are no good going to come from matching emotion-with-emotion.

00:01:41: Doom-dum, you know when they add those unnecessary drums?

00:01:43: You want us to play the music?

00:01:44: Yes please.

00:01:46: Just go on could you please.

00:01:51: And then all age groupers get this clapping going.

00:01:54: Oh

00:01:54: my goodness Scott DeRue what an absolute pleasure to have you are and you grew up in North Carolina In a one stop sign town as I've heard you describe it watching Iron Man.

00:02:08: That never really turned you into a triathlete, but your path went more along the lines of studying leadership going Into a classic academia career then finding yourself looking for challenges with some of the world's biggest sporting organizations and Now you've come to lead The sport of triathlon probably one of the most high-pressure filled jobs in endurance world.

00:02:39: And over the next hour or so, I'm very much looking forward to going mental with you.

00:02:44: this is Daru Going Mental.

00:02:45: welcome Scott!

00:02:46: Thank you so much Jan.

00:02:47: it's a pleasure and i'm excited to go mental with You as well.

00:02:50: So let's start right there.

00:02:52: when you hear going mental but what do You?

00:02:55: Is Going Mental?

00:02:57: It can be such a jarring phrase or term...I think A lot of people When they Hear Going Mental Think About Losing Control Or Some Version Of That.

00:03:08: I actually think about the opposite when I hear that term.

00:03:13: I think about, When The World Around You Is Chaotic And Dynamic and Changing So Much Maybe People Are Losing Their Control.

00:03:25: Going Mental For Me is About Actually Looking Inward And Becoming Even More Centered And Connecting With Sort Of That Sense of Purpose.

00:03:36: And going mental is really getting centered in my own mindset, so that I can deal with the chaos.

00:03:48: That it's happening around me.

00:03:50: and so whereas i think a lot of people here are going mental as losing control an-and just cant handle anymore for me its the opposite actually becoming even more centred and more purposeful In the Chaos Around Me.

00:04:05: if that makes sense

00:04:06: That makes perfect sense.

00:04:08: In a sporting analogy, I used to be exactly what you say for me where it would be losing control over some external thing that had no influence on.

00:04:17: and its one of those things when we become angry at something which is just an object because it's failing or something like that whereas now going mental will probably in similar way take over control with the high stakes situation in terms of descending on a bike.

00:04:36: Going mental where you just have this mono focus of all these things going on around.

00:04:39: but let's get into Risk and what it is about taking control a little bit later.

00:04:45: I would love Just in your own short words to describe Your journey from being that boy who watched the greats of triathlon, You know In your young youthful years To becoming The man at the helm of Iron Man describing that journey for somebody who perhaps hasn't followed all of

00:05:06: it.

00:05:06: It certainly has been a straightforward path, and as you know I didn't grow up a triathlete...I do remember watching Mark & Dave on television and seeing that.

00:05:16: but yeah i didn't have role models in my life.

00:05:20: uh-that were doing sports in that way.

00:05:23: Uh endurance sports was not really a thing.

00:05:27: I grew up in Wahlberg North Carolina where we had a stoplight and church, in the school.

00:05:35: And a diner effectively.

00:05:38: For us it was about playing American football or basketball.

00:05:42: So we were sporty but it was sort of classic small town America.

00:05:51: for me It was education that changed my life.

00:05:56: growing up in this small town you didn't even have the dreams that now we maybe even take for granted because you didn't know what was possible, right?

00:06:07: You couldn't see it.

00:06:08: Yeah Right and For me going to The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill opened my eyes To What Was Possible in the World.

00:06:18: I was exposed to people cultures ideas That i never knew him And Never Knew Existed Couldn't Even Imagine So that Moment Of Transformation.

00:06:30: For me, actually it becomes a recurring theme throughout my life because after college had no idea what I wanted to do.

00:06:38: Moved to Boston started working and was really void of purpose Was making good money meeting interesting people Working with interesting companies but really void-of-purpose.

00:06:53: And at that stage you were working as?

00:06:55: A consultant.

00:06:56: okay yeah i started in private equity investment banking consulting You know, basically the types of jobs that you do when you don't know what you really want to do.

00:07:05: And but it was void for with purpose uh from me.

00:07:09: and so I took a big step back and said all right i'm twenty five twenty six years old who do I wanna be when I grow up?

00:07:18: And

00:07:19: I decided in that moment I wanted to create experiences that transform people's lives for the better just like I had had through education.

00:07:29: But I didn't know how to do that.

00:07:32: So, I went through the thing that I knew education.

00:07:35: so it's like How do i become a professor and change people's lives?

00:07:40: That was the calculus.

00:07:43: And...so I said okay..I interviewed professors figured out how they did what They Did Went back to graduate school and Was fortunate enough To end up at University of Michigan as A Professor in two thousand and seven.

00:07:57: It was there for fourteen years and then decided to make a big life transition.

00:08:06: And went uh, worked for Equinox luxury lifestyle fitness okay?

00:08:16: I was on the board of company in pandemic happened.

00:08:19: I was about to say, fourteen years from two thousand seven.

00:08:21: that must be right.

00:08:22: About the best time to be in a presence.

00:08:25: fitness kind of industry?

00:08:27: Yeah it was-it was... It was a tough times.

00:08:28: so iIwas on board with company for number of years and pandemic happened.

00:08:33: And as you might imagine whether your are live events company like the Ironman group or your're a fitness company Or anything which trying bring people together is really tough.

00:08:45: And so the executive chairman, Harvey Spievak in The Board asked if I would come on full time and be part of the team leading the rebuild.

00:08:54: Yeah.

00:08:54: That's what we did?

00:08:56: Then a few years into that Ironman group called... ...and I didn't know as much about the company at the time In terms of the scope, scale across all various endurance sports but more I learned the more interested and excited i got.

00:09:13: Now two-and-a-half years uh, has been just an incredible journey and this community is really special to me.

00:09:20: So you went to Equinox?

00:09:22: You were there for a few years.

00:09:24: um then when you went Iron Man you took over the helm of let's call it a community that is as invested and opinionated as can be having never done a triathlon...you know..You said you had this pivot at twenty-five!

00:09:45: Here you went and started something that you had absolutely no idea about.

00:09:50: Was the discomfort, Something that you seeked out?

00:09:52: And something that perhaps actually relish?

00:09:57: for me one of the things That's motivating in life I think this is true For most people Is that next challenge Mm-hmm is finding The boundaries Of what it possible for yourself and then pushing on those boundaries a little bit?

00:10:09: yeah, and so if You look at all of the various sort of career Transitions they all come back to the same purpose of creating experiences for people that transform their lives.

00:10:21: Whether, that's through education whether it's do health and fitness now Endurance sports these are all platforms.

00:10:26: For people to change their lives further better.

00:10:28: That's The recurring theme.

00:10:30: but from me personally It's about what is that next challenge?

00:10:34: To explore What Is possible possible for myself Possible in terms of the impact that I can have on people's lives.

00:10:42: And so there's that recurring theme, but i love stepping into that unknown and Not you know iron man group.

00:10:53: I'm not a triathlete.

00:10:54: Yeah How is the community gonna respond?

00:10:56: Is the community going to be open and welcoming?

00:10:58: maybe may be not But I can influence that, how i step into the community with humility and appreciating learning from folks like yourself about this incredible community.

00:11:10: This incredible sport That transition is one which was very unknown to me but also exciting at same time.

00:11:22: And what do you think you could bring as a complete outsider?

00:11:27: a legend of the sport like Mark Allen, let's talk about him.

00:11:32: What could you bring that?

00:11:34: somebody who is very accomplished in this sport as CEO perhaps would be lacking?

00:11:40: Well, there's always the obvious fresh perspective on The sport but for me it's less about the sports and And they're the swim to bike the run aspects of triathlon or trail running or mountain biking Or cycling or whatever.

00:11:55: It may be and it's more about the consumer experience.

00:11:58: It's about the athlete experience.

00:11:59: the first thing I said when I came in is i'm gonna Be maniacally focused On putting the athlete first.

00:12:07: you know end your experience And that's on race day, but it's every day in between.

00:12:12: We're going to be focused on the community and fostering this sense of belonging and being open to the community.

00:12:18: So for me its less about being the expert in sport.

00:12:23: I am first to admit That i didn't come from a triathlon background.

00:12:28: Im not an expert in sports.

00:12:30: folks like yourselves are much more accomplished infinitely more accomplished than I can ever dream.

00:12:36: I enjoy the sport, right?

00:12:40: But I enjoyed the community of it.

00:12:42: I enjoy this sense of belonging and I enjoy that challenge for most athletes.

00:12:48: so there's something universally human about challenging ourselves or being part of a bigger thing than yourself... Being apart from other people... There is something universally humane about that.

00:13:01: And that transcends swim, bike & run in many ways even though we all love and that I've certainly come to a love, an appreciate.

00:13:11: Well i mean you ended up doing a seventy point three?

00:13:14: That begs the question have you got a fool on your radar at some... You gotta get your stripes!

00:13:20: I feel like he's got stripes from one side.

00:13:21: but

00:13:22: aside from that We touched on this human experience right And what it is that changes people lives.

00:13:35: There is some truth in that.

00:13:41: But I think the thing that's so unique about Iron Man, Is that finish line experience?

00:13:47: It...I can't put my finger on it!

00:13:49: I've tried many instances to pinpoint what makes this so special You have experienced now as an athlete and you are responsible for that whole experience Has changed your lens?

00:14:06: or how would you differentiate between those two?

00:14:09: Well, so I haven't experienced the Ironman finish line myself as an athlete and So i'm the first to admit that That's certainly on the radar.

00:14:18: I've experienced a seventy point three finish

00:14:20: line.

00:14:20: Yes Okay right

00:14:22: Right but those are different?

00:14:24: That's actually true.

00:14:25: Those Are Different Certainly from.

00:14:29: As An Athlete In Terms Of Endurance And Adventure Sports ,I know how To Do Hard Things But I Just Haven'T Experienced That First Hand.

00:14:39: But I'll tell you a story about the first Ironman event that I ever witnessed and attended.

00:14:46: So, just joined the company been here couple weeks And i fly to New Zealand for iron man new zealand and Ironmen New Zealands The second longest running Iron Man mm-hmm after Hawaii.

00:15:00: yeah So there's this history, the tradition is The Last Mass Start that we have in our portfolio.

00:15:09: There are all these uniqueness about the event and community And it's New Zealand Right?

00:15:15: Yeah!

00:15:17: So Flight of New Zealand.

00:15:20: It's almost overwhelming In terms of information coming-in All people you're meeting etc.

00:15:27: I'm having a blast Race starts It's exciting.

00:15:31: Everybody is going crazy, like this my first Ironman and then it's my First Midnight Finish

00:15:38: Of course yeah

00:15:39: And so its one thing to be at the finish line.

00:15:42: for people Like Yourself where you're coming across in seven half eight hours Its an incredible athletic achievement.

00:15:51: The level of performance In sport right now Yeah Is mind boggling

00:15:57: Wild.

00:15:58: Okay One My favorite Moments is that midnight finish.

00:16:03: Mm-hmm and our professional athletes come back to the finish line.

00:16:07: The community's coming out to support.

00:16:10: and Cheryl.

00:16:11: so there's a woman Who it's the last finisher, and we know she's coming?

00:16:17: And So I start asking people about who she is Come to find out.

00:16:22: She's i'm gonna guess in her sixties.

00:16:25: I don't remember exactly.

00:16:28: In the year prior she had missed the finish line cut off by approximately two to three minutes.

00:16:36: Yeah,

00:16:36: now imagine

00:16:39: you're cutting it.

00:16:39: fine honey your cutting in five.

00:16:42: I mean You can hear The Finish Line if you're all gonna miss It By Two or Three Minutes.

00:16:46: and Iron Man is brutal In that way.

00:16:48: by the Way this Is like no sorry That's it.

00:16:50: yeah made it

00:16:51: wait we're empathetic.

00:16:52: yeah

00:16:53: right but There's integrity To the sport yep.

00:16:58: So the year prior she misses.

00:17:00: The finish line cut off by two to three minutes.

00:17:02: She's coming again, and I'm looking at the clock And I'm like is this gonna happen?

00:17:06: Again Yon she rounds the corner and you can see her down.

00:17:12: the shoot the red the black they m dot All the fireworks all the energy You can sear it on a shooting.

00:17:19: She's basically crawling at this point.

00:17:21: Oh and the clocks ticking.

00:17:25: yeah

00:17:25: i get cold chills thinking about and she's coming down the chute, everybody is cheering her on.

00:17:30: She crawls across a finish line with approximately three seconds to spare.

00:17:39: I'll never forget that moment.

00:17:40: Yeah

00:17:41: That to me defines The Spirit of Iron Man And i was privileged To see it at my first ever iron man event.

00:17:51: It has shaped how I think about what this sport means for people and how significant it is in their lives, whether its the first time doing it or they're hundredth time doing.

00:18:04: How central becomes to one's sense of community when sense of identity right?

00:18:10: We are most tattooed brand on world.

00:18:13: really I thought a second month I thought Harley-Davidson is won ahead.

00:18:16: Do

00:18:19: you have a Harley tattoo?

00:18:21: I don't have an M.DOT tattoo, put it that

00:18:23: way!

00:18:24: We could solve by the end of today... But nobody's got exact accounting for it but we'll claim it.

00:18:37: certainly Harley and us are two.

00:18:40: most people would think about.

00:18:42: Think what this means to have deep emotional connection To a brand.

00:18:50: Yeah,

00:18:51: it's no longer My brand It's no long.

00:18:56: the Ironman groups brand.

00:18:58: yeah

00:18:59: its our Brand and that's really important shift in mindset of how you think about leadership business And what?

00:19:12: Not only this company the sport but What it means to The people who are your community.

00:19:21: And that's something that strikes me at many of the banquets, right?

00:19:26: Where you get together and there is this very emotional talk.

00:19:30: If you are coming from outside with a slightly objective mindset... ...and have not lived through day before.. You're like oh my god!

00:19:38: This was the worst sales pitch in the world.

00:19:39: Like it's so corny but it does beg to question Is Iron Man business or actually more religion?

00:19:49: Yes

00:19:51: Which one?

00:19:52: I think it can be both.

00:19:57: If we think about the concept of business in the context of endurance sports or these transformational experiences, the constructor—the concept of a business is simply so that we continue to... Why do we make money?

00:20:13: People talk sort-of making up money and the business of sport all the time.

00:20:17: In the context Iron Man why did we make so that we can reinvest in the athletes, the community and experience.

00:20:25: That's why!

00:20:26: Well I mean there is a bottom line to be fed... And i'm not denying that.

00:20:31: yes the athlete experiences getting much better but it's- There isn't interplay right?

00:20:37: But every dollar we make goes back into business.

00:20:41: Our shareholders do not take money off of table.

00:20:43: Oh really?

00:20:43: None Zero.

00:20:45: Every Dollar We Make Goes Back Into Business.

00:20:50: I didn't actually know that, Matt.

00:20:53: That's really interesting!

00:20:56: Let's get back to you and how you run this construct because what i find unique is that you have a very interesting relationship with risk... And don't necessarily mean in the business sense but personally go out as your very accomplished climber done the seven summits you have had and seen very firsthand.

00:21:27: The dangers of what can happen.

00:21:31: whereas as a position is a CEO, any company really your managing risk?

00:21:37: You've got layers in between processes teams structures in place.

00:21:42: right.

00:21:43: What does it that draws to mountain?

00:21:47: having real risks physical harm and danger.

00:21:52: And what does it do for you as a CEO?

00:21:56: Well, in the context of climbing It started simply as a reason to travel Growing up.

00:22:06: I didn't get to travel that much outside of country and certainly didn't see the world and i was finishing graduate school and wanted to treat myself To graduation gift basically spun the globe, picked a location.

00:22:23: Happened to be Africa in that case.

00:22:26: and so then what we would now say Google but I think at the time it was probably Yahoo!

00:22:33: Googled What If People Do In Africa?

00:22:36: And Safari and Kilimanjaro came up.

00:22:38: So I went and did a safari on Kilimanjarro and loved it Honestly became initially just reason.

00:22:46: go see world.

00:22:47: And there's a great quote from A Mountaineer that says, some people climb so the world can see them.

00:22:55: Other people climb to.

00:22:56: they could see the world.

00:22:57: I'm definitely the latter.

00:23:02: and it just became this passion of being able be in mountains challenge oneself Be part team.

00:23:11: Climbing is an interesting sport because you and i if we're climbing together We are only as strong as our weakest climber because we're tied together.

00:23:19: I love that interdependency team aspect to it, even though in a lot of endurance sports It can feel like an individual exercise?

00:23:27: Yeah imagine if you and i were competing In a triathlon but We Were Tied Together.

00:23:31: yeah

00:23:32: right Like You're A Little Faster Than I am You Probably Be Getting A little Frustrated

00:23:38: But You'd Managed The Eight Stations.

00:23:39: I don't know, i've seen you at aid stations.

00:23:44: You do a pretty good job.

00:23:46: But um...I just fell in love with being in nature uh Being in the mountains and being part of this team This collective trying to accomplish something amazing together.

00:23:56: Yeah Combined with the personal challenge aspect Of it And certainly there's A risk element To It Uh..And I think of risk In terms of uncontrollables and controllables.

00:24:09: Mm-hmm minimize the uncontrollable risk, and you want to prepare for the controllable risks.

00:24:20: Doesn't mean that you can take it zero...

00:24:23: In nature?

00:24:24: I don't

00:24:24: think its possible But You Want To Prepare As Best You Can For The Controllable Risks And ...the best mountaineering teams That i've been on with guides like Garrett Madison and Ben Jones and Vern Tejas These legends of this sport That's one of the things they're really good at is managing risk.

00:24:48: And I've got to see them make calls, you know?

00:24:51: Remember we were a camp four on Everest and high camp and The question was do we go or not?

00:25:00: and it was ten p.m.. At night the winds howling and You don't know what the weather is gonna be like at twenty nine thousand feet.

00:25:13: and you've got to make a judgment call.

00:25:15: And yes, you have information, multiple weather reports coming in but they don't say the same

00:25:19: thing.".

00:25:21: I remember Garrett our lead guide on that expedition working with his team of other professionals and them collectively making a judgement call based on our experience, based on the information we have... The calculated risk.

00:25:39: is we think the weather's going to cooperate with us?

00:25:41: so let's go!

00:25:44: knock on wood, they were right.

00:25:47: Right?

00:25:48: They could have just as easily been not right but... ...they had done the preparation.

00:25:55: They had the experience.

00:25:57: They worked together to calculate that risk and make a judgment call.

00:26:01: So you're never gonna be able take it zero But you can prepare You can bring your team together And you can make the best judgement The best decision That you can Make in that moment.

00:26:11: That's different than uncontrollable risk.

00:26:12: of my wife and I have a deal that.

00:26:13: I won't climb certain mountains.

00:26:15: the only variable that Puts those mountains on that list is The degree of uncontrollible risk.

00:26:23: so think big Syracs rock falls, but you can't control that sort Of thing.

00:26:27: yeah like why put yourself in that situation?

00:26:31: From for us we've made that decision.

00:26:33: other people they'll go climate And that's perfectly fine Right.

00:26:37: And so I've learned a lot about sort of risk mitigation, risk management in the context of climbing certainly and business.

00:26:45: you're dealing with some form of risk every day could be small can big uh...and i think about it very similar ways control what you can control.

00:26:57: Yeah that's kind of athlete mantra as well right but The truth is once the gun goes You know?

00:27:04: Even In the week leading up to such an event You know, you have all these calls to make and you have the knowledge.

00:27:12: And you've studied... ...you're a student of leadership in

00:27:18: general.".

00:27:21: Where does that line come from?

00:27:23: That you stop studying… …and actually go with that call because if your own base camp is on Everest….

00:27:32: It's pretty consequential and you have to be all in, In a way.

00:27:35: And find that trust That all this theoretical knowledge You've acquired Will actually come play off and Quite frankly speaking will save your butt in someway or another Like where for you Did you had moment when said okay I feel confident enough.

00:27:53: My studying of leadership Actually allows me To take the helm myself.

00:27:59: Well i think all of the various transitions in my life, you have to get... They're all filled with risk.

00:28:12: So I was a chair professor and dean of one of the top business schools in the world.

00:28:16: I had lifetime job security literally The protection of a federal judge could not be fired And gave that up To go into the unknown where at Equinox we weren't even sure We were gonna survive through the pandemic.

00:28:33: Right and so going from a very secure stable almost risk-free environment to maybe at that point in time The riskiest environment you could choose.

00:28:46: Yeah,

00:28:47: right Having the confidence In yourself the confidence in the people around you To say we don't know how this is going to play out.

00:28:59: Like like a lot of people like to play the result

00:29:02: yeah

00:29:03: Right and judge the journey on the result.

00:29:09: I think that's a mistake.

00:29:12: The result may be the reward, but it's not the reason.

00:29:17: yeah

00:29:18: And in That case making the jump and having the confidence to do that was What's the worst?

00:29:26: It's gonna happen.

00:29:26: I'm going to learn a ton.

00:29:28: i'm Gonna get to work with some fun people and if we can pull this off how incredible would that Be?

00:29:36: In that context, the company matters to hundreds of thousands people.

00:29:40: We employed—we had eleven thousand jobs on-the line?

00:29:44: Like if we could pull it off how impactful would this be?

00:29:50: and worst is going happen.

00:29:51: I'm gonna learn a ton get work with some fun people.

00:29:54: And lose forever job security.

00:29:55: That's where i find so interesting.

00:29:58: you see time again high performance almost seek out headwind.

00:30:04: It's as though we need a headwind to actually spring into gear.

00:30:09: And I wonder if it's just something that you need to feel alive because, you know, that safety and riding out the sunset going to Hawaiian holidays every year once or twice whatever is someone else's dream right?

00:30:26: Whereas for you do think risk of something.

00:30:29: well let us call adventure is something you need for yourself to actually feel alive.

00:30:35: It's what fuels me and I think this a universal human truth, we are motivated largely by two things purpose the pursuit or mastery of sort-of adventure.

00:30:52: Purpose one my good friend Adam Grant.

00:30:56: We grew up in academia together similar fields, organization behavior organizational psychology and Adam in his early career studied pro-social motivation is what he called it.

00:31:08: And effectively what it is.

00:31:10: how you and I are motivated by the impact we have on other people right?

00:31:15: So put that into bucket of purpose.

00:31:17: yeah

00:31:18: Right i think.

00:31:19: at the same time We Are.

00:31:21: What I Studied Mostly Was How We Respond to Challenge obstacles, experiences that get us outside of our comfort zone.

00:31:35: And all my research was on how do we learn from those things?

00:31:38: How do we engage in them?

00:31:40: How to make the sense of it and how are we motivated by these challenges.

00:31:46: I think as human beings a universal truth is we're motivated by purpose pro-social motivation and this sense of adventure, the sense of challenge.

00:31:59: And a sense sort of getting comfortable with the uncomfortable... Some people obviously are better at that than others!

00:32:09: For me-and I think for many there's universal truth That we're inspired by finding our next headwind Our next challenge in life And it might require a small transition.

00:32:29: It might require big transition in our lives, but we're motivated by that and we seek it out and hopefully with humility.

00:32:41: so don't go in assuming know everything because if you are going into your discomfort zone or unknown yeah would be kind of foolish to assume.

00:32:56: So hopefully we can approach that experience with the right mindset, but for me personally.

00:33:03: That's a big part of what fuels me is the impact I can have on other people's lives and this personal journey of adventure exploration finding the limits sort-of human possibility in those boundaries from myself and others.

00:33:20: But i think thats more universal to being human than it me or you as individuals.

00:33:28: Yeah, I mean there is that thing of like you said providing purpose and... You continue to do that in all your positions right?

00:33:36: It's not the actual things stopped here.

00:33:39: what turned you was curiosity.

00:33:41: where else can take this?

00:33:43: i think a flip side of the coin mentioned never change winning team which one of those old school kind sports.

00:33:53: No, you have to change the team because if you don't people have figured it out.

00:33:59: But what would you say to someone?

00:34:01: Because I hear a lot of people that listen this podcast.

00:34:03: They send me messages.

00:34:04: they Say You know i've done This.

00:34:06: i've achieved this.

00:34:07: i thought this external thing Would fulfill Me but now i don't really Have The courage To take the next step to go into where It is and think many People wait for them to have A personal Breakdown Including Myself transitioning from Olympic distance to Ironman distance.

00:34:26: I was holding onto something that i knew, it's good at and this whole unknown of the iron man journey took me years in a personal crash To really actually have courage.

00:34:37: not even the courage is lie so be forced.

00:34:40: take step out my comfort zone.

00:34:43: how come you're able do it so readily?

00:34:47: follow essentially what we know true theory but trusted

00:34:54: I think part of it's the supportive people that are around you.

00:34:56: So, Kathy my lovely wife and in family Are incredibly supportive when i come up with crazy ideas whether their career and professional.

00:35:08: Here he goes again right?

00:35:10: And I Think Kathy is one Of her scariest Phrases That I have Is honey.

00:35:16: I've Been Thinking Anytime I say Honey.

00:35:21: I've been thinking She wants to leave the room.

00:35:26: Not again, please!

00:35:28: So I think part of it is that but... It's also the case.

00:35:33: what's worse going to happen?

00:35:36: We often make an answer much bigger than we actually do.

00:35:45: Overestimating consequence Yeah

00:35:47: and does this come with risk?

00:35:49: Of course.

00:35:52: But what's the worst that is going to happen?

00:35:54: It usually not bad, right.

00:35:59: And so certainly when we contrast The answer of question with What might happened if this goes well Right and you know If were able turn around equinox and rebuild coming out pandemic We are really able to reignite iron man and fuel his community.

00:36:24: the positive impact of that far outweighs and exceeds whatever risk there might be for me personally or For us as a collective.

00:36:39: I Routinely ask myself, what's the worst?

00:36:41: That's gonna happen And it's usually not that bad and i think some people get weighed down by What they think Might happen and put more weight on the negative than then positive.

00:37:04: Which is interesting in sport because you're taught not to really overweigh either, right?

00:37:12: The loss...the loss as a painful lesson-you move on and use it as fuel or whatever it is.

00:37:17: but the win is also another step.

00:37:21: that Can often be a difficult moment as well because you reach something.

00:37:29: and then what we've talked about this And you having your seven summits now.

00:37:33: You've done it, you know What's next.

00:37:36: but for you?

00:37:37: As somebody who is leading this organization how do you measure the success?

00:37:43: and When you say youth you're on track to create this change.

00:37:48: Do you have moments where he sit back and celebrate with a team or is it just Something that you see far outweighs the negative but does it actually find emotional meaning within you?

00:37:59: So to me, the result again is a reward.

00:38:03: But It's not the reason and The motivation in.

00:38:07: what fuels us Is more about the everyday journey.

00:38:10: Yeah And for me For example, it's the joy of getting To work with our team.

00:38:15: yeah

00:38:16: Getting to engage With Our community.

00:38:19: right?

00:38:19: I mean i was In brazil last week.

00:38:21: uh for Ironman Brazil You know, I think people have figured out that I often jump into our races.

00:38:28: And why do I do that?

00:38:30: One is I want to see it through the athlete's eyes but two Is i get To be part of this community doing This incredible thing and That's really Motivating and inspiring to me.

00:38:44: so I'm riding The bike in Florinopolis up these big hills, and you mentioned going down a hill at one hundred K. That I could not imagine but i was going downhill much faster than i could have ever imagined maybe even what it's comfortable with.

00:38:59: And this woman passes me on the bike.

00:39:05: She turns around she sees that its me.

00:39:10: Oh my goodness!

00:39:12: Scott is that you?

00:39:14: And so we have this, you know a couple of minute conversation and then- Saying

00:39:18: draft legal I

00:39:18: hope.

00:39:19: Oh draft legal for us.

00:39:19: twenty meters or no twelve.

00:39:23: sorry twelve but We're having this lovely Conversation.

00:39:30: the gentleman does it doesn't do The same thing?

00:39:33: So It's those everyday moments Of connection with my team With our community That to me are these moments that inspire you to keep going, wanting to keep working hard.

00:39:51: It's not about some goal or destination that if we just achieve the that then everything is solved.

00:39:58: because I mean... You want a gold medal and I remember the first conversation we ever had.

00:40:06: We talked about experience in transition to Iron Man And one of questions after winning the Gold Medal was, well have you ever raced Kona?

00:40:19: There's always something next.

00:40:22: Yeah

00:40:23: Right and that's after winning a gold medal.

00:40:29: It it was slightly frictuous at the time

00:40:33: right And I can only imagine how that made you feel of like wait a minute i just want to go metal and You're asking me about this next thing.

00:40:42: yeah,

00:40:43: right That journey And going on that journey for yourself with others, et cetera to me is much more rewarding and the reason we do things than some sort of set goal.

00:40:58: Yeah because if-if that's your only focus.

00:41:03: then you do get to the top of that mountain and it becomes very anticlimactic like I remember when we were on Everest and i have had a GoPro uh on my helmet.

00:41:16: wonderful video of us standing at the top of the world, wind is howling.

00:41:20: It's a beautiful day you can see forever but the winds blowing forty-fifty miles an hour.

00:41:24: it's super cold and one my teammates gives me a hug.

00:41:28: he says Scott we did it!

00:41:30: And my response in that moment was no we didn't we were only halfway there.

00:41:33: We still had to go down.

00:41:35: Make it back out which...

00:41:39: And if your only focused on getting to the top whatever metaphor represents for Then when you get to the top, it's going to be an anti-climatic experience.

00:41:51: It's going To Be less fulfilling than you dreamt it to be.

00:41:54: Yeah

00:41:56: Because what has fueled You to Get to that moment Has been The journey to get there not just?

00:42:02: The destination.

00:42:04: and That is a cliche of course but cliches can also be true

00:42:09: A hundred percent.

00:42:10: I mean, that's kind of yeah...I think the whole point is the arrival fallacy right?

00:42:15: That you get there and realize okay well uh..yeah There always something next because your life goes on And this forever battle sports has but probably also business in many ways The finite versus infinite game The finite game of reaching and needing to have targets, And needing to meet numbers.

00:42:37: And meeting two meat expectations versus your own.

00:42:42: how far can I actually sail the ship?

00:42:44: How far Can i Actually go?

00:42:46: that's it and i think if we put It We all need goals.

00:42:51: Right we need goals To give us something to aim for and to keep pushing For.

00:42:57: but the goal is a step in the journey not simply the destination, whether that's in sport.

00:43:02: Whether it's in business and so our team we certainly have goals that we want to achieve this year right?

00:43:08: If we didn't then I probably shouldn't be in a position That i'm in.

00:43:14: but why do We Have Goals To Give Us A Shared North Star Right So That We Know What We're Working Towards Together?

00:43:24: Yeah It'a Forcing Function for Creating Alignment And When we get close to that goal, what do you think's gonna happen?

00:43:35: The next goal is set.

00:43:36: Yeah And the next goals a little further and then a little farther.

00:43:42: What's important is that we make sure that we're celebrating along the way That were learning from what's not working Mm-hmm, and we're enjoying doing it together if We're celebrating the winds where learning from the failures and we are enjoying doing It together.

00:44:00: Then as we go along and accomplish those goals, then we set the next one.

00:44:06: We set the Next

00:44:06: One.".

00:44:07: And that's how I think.

00:44:08: as individuals, as companies, we evolve, we grow, we develop... ...and ultimately we accomplished more than maybe even thought was possible.

00:44:18: because when we set those goals Those goals are constrained by what we think is possible in that moment.

00:44:24: Yeah Of course

00:44:26: If we keep stretching those goals Then we wake up two years later three years later five years later And then we look back, and we could have never imagined that was possible.

00:44:40: But every day with the discipline, the teamwork, the commitment... We made it possible!

00:44:50: I look at all of this time because from outside It seems like a slightly masochistic undertaking.

00:45:00: Everybody is always like how do you suffer so much?

00:45:02: How did he put his work into it?

00:45:04: And then every time I come to an event, your team is underslept.

00:45:10: Generally overcaffeinated running around trying to figure out X Y and Z... ...and i find it interesting because no one's complaining right?

00:45:23: You find that in a lot of high-pressure environments which it is you know.

00:45:27: the thing that I find so compelling about sports and doing sports events is you have a date.. ..and its set in stone more or less not actually more as it's very much set in stone and you need to perform, too that very deadline.

00:45:40: And that creates a very high pressure environment!

00:45:46: It is one of the few times I see people being under this stress so much under the pump for... and yet maintain what you say is joy.

00:46:01: because I do agree, finding joy in what you do is the biggest performance enhancer.

00:46:07: You can ever have... Is there something that you engineer to this or how does it get to that point?

00:46:15: That stays

00:46:17: joyous?".

00:46:20: I think there's a few things one as people select in and out right.

00:46:24: so i think in organizational behavior selection, attrition model where people eventually find the work that is joyful to them or they leave.

00:46:44: And so I think there's a part of that.

00:46:47: but when I joined The Ironman Group just like i've done at every stop prior usually spend least first thirty sixty days going around and talking

00:47:00: Yeah, I was quite amazed actually yeah.

00:47:02: I got a call out of the blue for me sometimes like what okay here?

00:47:06: I don't know but i don't Know.

00:47:08: and And so I go on basically research mission right to try and learn and tried understand and I remember when I joined the army group I said I'm not making any consequential decisions unless we have two.

00:47:20: there's always something that may come up.

00:47:22: I'm Not Making Any Consequential Decisions For At Least Three To Six Months Because I want to take time To connect with and learn from our community, and that's our team.

00:47:32: That's our athletes fans spectators partners etc.

00:47:35: etc.

00:47:37: And so I just spent the you know first few months mostly talking to people and listening and learning From them and with our team.

00:47:45: coming back to your question With our team The single most common thread the universal theme That ran through every conversation.

00:47:57: when i asked People why do you work here?

00:48:03: People had different language for it, but it came back to our athletes and the experience we create.

00:48:10: that is life-changing.

00:48:12: For those athletes And again It might be their first time with us.

00:48:17: It might Be there hundredth Time With Us

00:48:20: Yeah

00:48:21: But being a part of That Not Everybody That Works at The Ironman Group Is A Triathlete Or An Endurance Athlete?

00:48:28: By the impact that we can have on other people's lives through what?

00:48:35: We do and That is a universal truth.

00:48:37: So when you travel, The world and go to our events this year will Do over two hundred fifty vents in over fifty countries.

00:48:44: There's only a few weekends A Year where we don't Have an event And some Weekends.

00:48:53: we have twelve thirteen fourteen Events so we have Teams all around the World All of the Time.

00:49:01: mm-hmm fueled by that Common Purpose and My Job In Many Ways as CEO is first and foremost about igniting that purpose, that binds us together.

00:49:15: And creates that inspiration, that motivation.

00:49:17: Then making sure we have a shared North Star that were aiming for it.

00:49:21: If we can unlock in sort of ignite that purpose make sure people have the shared North star they're all aiming for to gather then every day certainly not perfect but everyday how we work together to accomplish that, then ultimately good things happen.

00:49:41: It might be a bit of a roller coaster.

00:49:42: there may some ups and downs or maybe twist turns but if you stay the course just like an athlete whether it's company where they're someone yourself training for the Olympics or Ironman World Championship whatever case may be You'll have good days bad days meet some twists and turns But you will stay in the course.

00:50:03: the result, however it plays out.

00:50:09: That's a step

00:50:32: in five events a weekend, and that means there is always something going wrong.

00:50:42: There must be from swims being cancelled to governing bodies saying we don't want this traffic running through here –we wanted rather go in there–to all sorts of things.

00:50:57: I see your face from the outside…I see you attending these things.

00:51:05: but what's your internal process?

00:51:07: to stay calm and Resolutive in some way that you're actually You know staying.

00:51:16: what's your internal process?

00:51:18: To keep you cool.

00:51:19: Yeah That's the going mental Right, so you got all this chaos around you And you're right.

00:51:25: every week there is something.

00:51:27: Every day There's something.

00:51:37: The Internal Process comes back.

00:51:42: First understand what is actually happening here because a lot of times in the chaos you're getting information from all different angles and You don't know.

00:51:51: What's wet?

00:51:51: Mm-hmm, so first and foremost making sure that you have accurate accurate information coming for multiple sources And really truly understanding what's happening.

00:52:03: right.

00:52:04: but then okay let's control.

00:52:05: we can control Right there's.

00:52:08: no There's no good going to come From matching emotion with emotion.

00:52:15: Have you ever found a situation where?

00:52:19: Matching chaos, with Chaos matching Emotion With Emotion leads to A good outcome.

00:52:26: I have not Found

00:52:26: one Outside of Competition.

00:52:29: i have Not in Competition.

00:52:31: it's quite.

00:52:32: It can't be a Good Thing but i understand the point You're trying To make

00:52:36: and so for me that'S when Going Mental Becomes Really Important is okay.

00:52:42: let's Let's refind center.

00:52:45: Let's focus, let's break down what are the really important two or three issues that we have to solve for here and lets go solve those at the same time.

00:52:55: with two hundred fifty events in over fifty countries this isn't about me.

00:53:02: I can be everywhere making every decision.

00:53:06: if thats how i tried to organize our teams run a company We would not be successful guaranteed.

00:53:15: So the cliche would be building great teams, but true.

00:53:19: Right?

00:53:20: But then empowering them with a clear set of guiding principles that we are operating on globally so that we can be consistent and at scale.

00:53:31: It's creating those structures it's creating the processes, but most important is about people in culture And having Great Committed talented people on the team who you trust and can empower to make those decisions, but then spending the time to align on what are the principles by which we make these decisions?

00:53:59: I get that.

00:54:00: But in the end, the buck stops with you.

00:54:03: Sure And some of these events athletes have spent years preparing for.

00:54:10: You mentioned The Lady New Zealand.

00:54:12: She's failed at this hairs with.

00:54:16: you know to come across that line and You know there's real emotional energy at stake here, And in the end.

00:54:28: You're not a robot?

00:54:29: Yeah No!

00:54:29: This is-you have your decision tree.

00:54:30: That's all out There Right?

00:54:32: Your

00:54:32: Human?!

00:54:32: You are human and... ...You Have this initial reaction yeah of your kind of fight or flight brain.. ..That wants To react and jump In and meet The chaos.

00:54:42: and thats really what I'm trying to see.

00:54:44: where if you have If you have a personal, just something that really helps you fall back onto your processes.

00:54:53: I mean by now you've probably practiced it enough time and then its an automation.

00:54:57: but how did get there?

00:54:59: Yeah...I think theres within the context of let's say the Ironman group.

00:55:08: You come to appreciate How meaningful these moments are people And where i think alot leaders, executives go wrong is getting disconnected from that really human moment that matters to people.

00:55:33: So why do I jump into our events?

00:55:36: Why do I travel to a lot of the events?

00:55:39: one of the reasons Is because i get To interact with Our customer With our athletes with their family with Their friends.

00:55:48: You learn a lot by doing that, but you also stay more connected to their experience.

00:55:53: so when We do things really well great.

00:55:57: Let's celebrate that.

00:55:58: But when we don't live up to our expectations?

00:56:02: You have an appreciation you have some empathy for that experience because your closer to it.

00:56:07: Your closer to the human you're closer to there experience.

00:56:11: if I ever get to a point where i'm disconnected From our athletes from our community and their lived actual experience with us then it's time for me to move on because You can't have the empathy for that experience if you're not connected to it.

00:56:34: And so I can do that by being an athlete and participating.

00:56:38: That's one version Right, but I can also do it.

00:56:42: Bye being around our community and engaging, talking and listening.

00:56:46: And understanding.

00:56:49: so for me it's less of a mantra in its more philosophical approach that I wanna be as close to our customer As i possibly can be one because its motivating from the go back to purpose right if im disconnected form that don't get see impact were having on your life.

00:57:08: yeah.

00:57:09: So I need that fuel I need motivation But at the same time, I'm always getting more and more information about what are we doing?

00:57:15: well?

00:57:16: What do we not doing.

00:57:16: Well where are the opportunities?

00:57:18: in reality is with nearly two hundred sixty events this year And well over fifty countries there Are many opportunities for us to Do things better and The mantra that i preach To our team every day one percent Better everyday One Percent Better Every Day.

00:57:39: That is a cliche.

00:57:41: But that becomes impossible because it's one hundred percent very quickly,

00:57:44: right?

00:57:45: Right but-but... It's less about um One adding up to a hundred and it's more about yeah that mindset Every day, but they forces you To okay we're doing this.

00:57:57: well We're not doing this.

00:57:58: Well how do we go make that better?

00:58:00: How did we do more of This?

00:58:02: that Mindset in that approach keeps You connected to the experience Of our athletes and brings with it a sense of humility.

00:58:12: We're not perfect, in Carol Dweck's language sort of learning mindset where we are always trying to get better?

00:58:21: And I think that is true whether you were an athlete or business.

00:58:27: That was universal human truth as well.

00:58:29: Yeah because essentially Iron Man doesn't live federations, there are governments.

00:58:37: There are organizers.

00:58:38: They're athletes always tearing at you basically and when you say it's athlete first I guess that really the interesting part is just try to get one percent better every time because many of the decisions we make would be a compromise in some sort of sense which brings me back to something when we were talking about the quota for Hawaii, men and women.

00:59:10: And the participation of woman... You introduced a concept of equal opportunity or equal outcome versus equal outcome to me?

00:59:22: It got me thinking a lot.

00:59:23: I was hoping you would share your ideas especially regarding female participation.. Your climbing mantra of bringing everyone with you and how you balance that in your role, but also for you as a person behind the role.

00:59:43: So one of things I love about sport is... In most cases it's meritocracy right?

00:59:54: And whether it's the scoreboard or the clock or whatever it may be there was a meritocracy.

00:59:59: One of the things I love about Iron Man is whether you're a professional athlete or whether you are ninety years old, yeah You're lining up on the same course.

01:00:13: On the same day

01:00:15: The structure is about as equal as it could be.

01:00:17: exactly right and that's true.

01:00:19: Whether different ages where they were different genders Different backgrounds Whatever the case may be sort of this ultimate meritocracy.

01:00:28: now our journeys to get to that start line May not have been equal?

01:00:34: Definitely not.

01:00:35: Right, one had more supports or you know tools in their toolkit whatever the case may be.

01:00:42: so I think that's important for us to acknowledge and recognize.

01:00:45: is there are these systemic differences of our journey to the start line?

01:00:50: but once we're on this start line same day same race yeah right?

01:00:54: And So That's what i mean by equal opportunity At The Same Time For Us Whether we want to talk about it from a sort of philosophical, social good angle or whether We Want To Talk About It in Terms Of Business.

01:01:10: As We Think About The World Of Sport And Endurance Sports In Particular A Huge Growth Opportunity Is Encouraging More Women To Participate In Endurance sports and You Know In Road Running.

01:01:22: Several Decades ago This Was the Case enormous strides in road running.

01:01:29: And part of the growth that we're seeing in road-running today is because of many more women coming into this sport over the last several decades.

01:01:36: as We look towards longer distance endurance sports whether it's Ironman and triathlon, Whether it is UTMB and trail running etc.

01:01:46: The longer the distance you go the less women participation You have.

01:01:51: I think about where can we be?

01:01:53: Not just this year or next year, but where can we be in five ten twenty years?

01:01:57: Yeah.

01:01:58: And I think the same thing is going to happen In longer distance endurance sports not just triathlon But it's a longer-distance endurance sports as we've seen with road running from Five K ten K two marathons because we see the same things and in ultras Right now, right?

01:02:16: And it's beginning to shift.

01:02:18: But from a business perspective its huge growth opportunity because you have this whole population.

01:02:23: who is not today your customer.

01:02:27: at the same time we all know that community more alive and vibrant when its diverse across age groups, genders etc.

01:02:38: We've got lot of work do but I'm really excited about some progress made at the same time, very optimistic about realistic but also optimistic.

01:02:52: About where we are and the work that we have to do to achieve those aspirations again not just this year next year but five years from now ten years from know

01:03:02: which brings me To The Point That Iron Man Is Turning Fifty In Two Years Time.

01:03:10: Twenty-Twenty Eight You're

01:03:12: Gonna Come Out Of Retirement To Race Right?

01:03:13: Well It's LA!

01:03:15: I'm not sure.

01:03:15: I think i might do it like you and jump in, y'know?

01:03:17: Jumping for some part of... We

01:03:19: can do a relay!

01:03:20: Yeah

01:03:20: we have to do a re-lay.

01:03:21: It seems like trying avoid the swimming part..I'll take the swim

01:03:23: part.

01:03:27: What Do You Think In The Next Fifty Years We Really Need To Protect Of What Is Coming As The Sport is Growing Exponentially As Its Becoming A Worldwide Phenomenal And Where Do You See The Chances Of Change That Hasn't Yet Occurred?

01:03:48: One of the phrases that I heard when I first joined The Iron Man Group was, That iron man is a soul sport.

01:04:05: And that led me down a path asking lots questions to people who had been around for a long time Bob Bavitt and... We had John and Judy Collins who founded Ironman in Kona last year.

01:04:17: And I got a chance to take a helicopter ride with them, talk about the sport and their journey...I remember talking with Valerie Silk, who rest in peace unfortunately passed away here recently but many of questions that i would ask or have asked really relates back to that phrase of Iron Man being a soul sport.

01:04:43: I mean, it started with fifteen people basically making a barbed on the shores in Hawaii-

01:04:47: It was a bar bed!

01:04:48: Right?

01:04:51: And you know this sort of grass rootsy feel like.

01:04:56: can this even be done?

01:04:58: and We talk about adventure and exploration, these were the ultimate adventurers.

01:05:05: Can this even be done?

01:05:08: This notion of a soul sport?

01:05:09: to your question about what needs to be protected as we... I think of Ironman is a global brand but very local business.

01:05:23: Grow the brand we grow.

01:05:25: The reach and we've certainly seen that evolution over the last fifty years And we'll see it in the next fifty years.

01:05:29: There are not many brands and companies That even get to celebrate their fiftieth birthday much less one hundredth, but has been this successful over This time period?

01:05:39: I think as we grow the brand We grow the reach would grow the community?

01:05:43: We invest in the experience etc..I think one of things we have to protect is this notion of soul and how special Iron Man is to the people that tattoo it to their bodies, right?

01:06:00: That its part of there identity.

01:06:03: It's they're sense of belonging and...that balancing act Is really hard Right And Its not simple.

01:06:18: But if we stay true To The Mantra Of putting our athletes in Our Community first In everything We do it will force us, as we continue to grow.

01:06:31: It will force use make sure that were doing so in a way hopefully preserves and protects the soul of this sport.

01:06:47: I tell people all time if at any point you don't feel like are getting right i want be your first phone call because thats something really important for me And my time event at some point will come and I will no longer be the CEO of The Iron Man Group.

01:07:07: That's many years from now, but it someplace that time we'll come in looking back whenever that time is one other things that Is really important to me as when i look Back?

01:07:21: I want To feel good about not only everything that we've achieved in all the growth and impact, but the preservation of our soul.

01:07:34: Leave The Jersey in a better place.

01:07:39: Scott thank you so much.

01:07:40: from a bar bet to global sports phenomenon at your helm.

01:07:45: Final question?

01:07:47: When was it last time you went mental?

01:07:53: Recently I, again going mental for me.

01:08:00: chaos around you.

01:08:02: How do you find center?

01:08:05: And we've had some unexpected twist and turns in the last month or so that created chaos.

01:08:26: choice of how you respond.

01:08:29: and I think, I went mental a couple times.

01:08:37: And certainly you want to... You have all the emotions-all the feels Frustration anger whatever it may be.

01:08:47: And you can't let those emotions get the best of ya!

01:08:53: So we had to find center how to respond in a way that served our community and athletes first.

01:09:06: That's what we've done.

01:09:08: Scott, thank you so much!

01:09:09: I think you're the first person to answer consistently with your definition... ...and their last time going mental.

01:09:14: Honestly it has been great hour.

01:09:17: I really appreciated your insights getting to know you better.

01:09:22: Good luck for all of future.

01:09:24: Again thanks for

01:09:25: everything you do.

01:09:26: This podcast is produced by POTSTARS at OMR.