Henning Thrien: The Mind Games of Elite Athletes

00:00:00: My job is basically being a trashcan on the day of competition and I'm fine with that.

00:00:06: He helped me figure out my own mental games, he was...my sports shrink.

00:00:13: She would always argue like right before big game she was football player Like.

00:00:17: okay i gonna quit today.

00:00:20: im not going to walk onto pitch.

00:00:22: this is it!

00:00:22: I prepared my instagram statement.

00:00:24: Im outta here.

00:00:25: I didn't say much Like, when are you going to post it?

00:00:29: Am I gonna be

00:00:29: tagged?".

00:00:30: I do work with a psychologist myself.

00:00:33: Started doing that in twenty-twenty four basically after the Olympics and definitely feel like its helping!

00:00:57: You're like, I think you were born with some sort of champion gene and then that needs to be shaped.

00:01:04: And it's better shape by the perfect

00:01:06: environment.".

00:01:07: Up to a point where I called an athlete off mine who is also coach was okay... ...I consult for free now when you write me a training plan next five weeks because if we don't do this i'm gonna fuck it up!

00:01:31: Hello and welcome to this episode of Frodena Going Mental.

00:01:36: We have somebody who's very close to me in many ways, closest to me than... ...many of the other people that walk around in my circle.

00:01:49: And that is because he helped me figure out my own mental games The Mental Games going around me.

00:01:55: Ladies and gentlemen welcome to Henning Treen.

00:01:59: He was My sports shrink for lack of a better term And I am very, very excited to chat with him about the way he sees mental training.

00:02:12: The way he see mind games and how he perceives athletes that are just a little bit more resilient than others.

00:02:20: Henning!

00:02:21: Welcome to this show.

00:02:23: Thank you Thanks for having me

00:02:25: Henning.

00:02:25: For those who don't know what you have done why not give us a quick resume as we do?

00:02:34: Well, myself back in the days liked to swing a racket and like to play some tennis.

00:02:41: I ended up doing that during those states – playing college tennis at the same time pursuing my career in sports psychology here.

00:02:54: And started working as a sports psychologist almost fifteen years ago!

00:03:01: worked in team sports first up to the point where I was like, okay.

00:03:06: Don't really just want to work on one sport because sport is too much fun and you hang around in football or tennis.

00:03:15: started at your work as a sport that causes many different or various sports.

00:03:20: yeah... In twenty eighteen when i founded my own startup over the last couple of years more ended working with endurance athletes.

00:03:30: Maybe you can tell me why that is.

00:03:33: And yeah, just love to be a part of competitive sports always loved to be.

00:03:38: I've always enjoyed way more being a sport psychologist than being a coach.

00:03:43: it tried both in the beginning since i was playing tennis and also started off as a coach but then at some point realized okay...I do think my role is rather been the psychologist or the sports shrink.

00:03:59: And yeah, I work with many different athletes teams around the globe and Yeah Try to try to make sure that the mental side is on board when it comes to lead performance.

00:04:13: Well, I would argue that the Mental Side is probably At least fifty percent of coaching but let's get into That next.

00:04:20: I think i feel like With this experience you are in a prime position To give us a definition of what we're trying to solve here, which is... What does going mental mean for you?

00:04:34: You know I did have some time to prepare that question knowing it would come first and uh i failed.

00:04:42: To come up with the perfect answer because um.. That's something we are trying to to solve.

00:04:49: in a way.

00:04:50: It has so many different aspects So many different parameters when it comes to okay, what is going mental?

00:05:00: I my personal definition would be like Actually maybe achieving Like a higher sort of like sense of like Mental game in the way.

00:05:14: Like just being in it and like you know, like finding new layers too To like an maybe in arousal stage or like the perfect mindset for an upcoming game more competition and maybe being led by something than just your conscious mind.

00:05:32: That's what I understand.

00:05:34: when it comes to going mental, that can be quite negative but at the same time can also be very positive as well.

00:05:40: If an athlete came up with this idea of going mental my assumption is not or there has been a very critical situation in which he accomplished something great.

00:05:54: So my understanding is that going mental, it's just a different layer to what you usually experience.

00:06:03: I feel like that may actually be very much sport dependent right?

00:06:07: If you look at surfing for instance which mentally i find super interesting sport because You can be ready!

00:06:14: Your physically prepared your mentally on and then nature Just throws an absolute curveball.

00:06:21: But if they have great wave In general, you'd be like oh my god that was totally mental.

00:06:29: Whereas in endurance sports game sports You're right there is an ambiguity to it and... ...in some degree I would argue.

00:06:38: Perhaps its your job To turn that ambiguity into something positive.

00:06:43: Do feel thats?

00:06:44: That's the way?

00:06:46: Definitely i will always argue Its of course My Job With the athlete and you need to have the athlete on board.

00:06:53: but I do think it's my job to understand like, To help the athlete or support the athlete.

00:06:58: Understand what does going mental mean?

00:07:01: And how can we use that actually?

00:07:04: maybe also be aware of this... Going mental phase might be harming in a way.

00:07:14: then just being aware okay This is what i may want when reaching certain state.

00:07:21: But yeah, I do think that's part of the job for a sports ring.

00:07:27: To support the athlete to get better understanding on how he feels and what you can do with it.

00:07:36: For example one athlete i worked with quite closely.

00:07:41: She would always argue like right before big games she was football player Like ok im gonna quit like today i'm gonna quit.

00:07:47: I am not going to walk on the pitch, this is it!

00:07:50: I prepared my instagram statement and im out of

00:07:52: here.".

00:07:53: And at some point when that happened over again...I was almost relieved.

00:07:59: she came up with me because I knew there were her preparing herself for a time.

00:08:05: that matters.

00:08:06: She had to go through these phases where you are close to retirement in order to be like okay f that..i will do my job But she had to experience that phase of going absolutely mental and being that low.

00:08:22: To know, okay now I'm

00:08:23: ready.".

00:08:24: You know?

00:08:24: And for me it's super smart like her being emotionally super-smart because he understood this is not something she has to fight but actually just has to endure.

00:08:37: as soon as she was done with it She was really ready to go.

00:08:41: Wow!

00:08:42: Now... That..I have never ever Heard of someone over and over Preparing.

00:08:48: they say I mean what would that even look like?

00:08:50: do you?

00:08:50: Like to write the same statement every time?

00:08:52: does it get more polished?

00:08:53: Does it get different reasons.

00:08:55: I mean, Do You thank The people in your corner?

00:08:58: um i think we should have her on the show.

00:09:01: We Should definitely Have Her On The Show And That Sounds Fascinating.

00:09:06: I Mean Yeah the idea Of It not Being Endless But Go A little bit Deeper.

00:09:13: What You Think Drive Someone.

00:09:16: I think it was like...I don't know if that's driving her, but to me she had this understanding.

00:09:25: It obviously came from a fear of failure and a fear what is going on today?

00:09:29: Am i not performing the way as

00:09:32: should?".

00:09:33: That sort of okay-a-going-and-retire was quick exit strategy And you just have to let out.

00:09:40: So I was the one person she called because obviously you can't have your coach.

00:09:44: Hey, i'm about to retire Because then he probably wouldn't start.

00:09:47: You know maybe the coach is not the person you want to talk too About it.

00:09:50: so okay users use a shrink because?

00:09:53: He's not telling anyone and I think what we were able To establish was like an understanding that this Is not a problem.

00:10:03: you can Have these sort of thoughts but Obviously She's Not going to retire.

00:10:08: But you just had to do Let, let go.

00:10:12: Talk about it like name it phrase whatever but as soon she's.

00:10:18: by doing this It's not making that fear even bigger.

00:10:23: You know what I mean?

00:10:23: Like its just letting out Me not actually...I didn't say much was okay.

00:10:30: yeah when are you gonna post it?

00:10:33: Am i going to be tagged?

00:10:34: those other questions?

00:10:35: And so we kind of found like it was also, in a way at some point.

00:10:41: It was funny before the European final and were talking about her retiring.

00:10:46: So that wasn't quite odd or strange situation But never looked as if this is your problem.

00:10:55: This is how you deal with pressure.

00:10:59: She understood she was part going mental.

00:11:03: That didn't harm because She understood that this is part of her.

00:11:08: I mean, the finality of it probably something in that moment perhaps releases the idea or anything you can really deal with whatever outcome comes... In terms of yeah there would be a lot to think about whether personally I've never ever encountered anything or anyone kind of throwing in the towel because, i guess for the first time at least you would have probably had some sort of shock.

00:11:45: But like

00:11:46: as

00:11:47: a person how do keep cool and that moment?

00:11:50: And not give the advice no-no... You have to do this.

00:11:54: then let's talk about it afterwards

00:11:56: Because I think its.. At some point In their job they understood my job is basically being a trash can on the day of competition.

00:12:07: And I'm fine with that, like...I am fine with being used as a trashcan!

00:12:12: As silly as it sounds.

00:12:13: but and i understood at some point not about me coming up with an alternative thought or to come up with some sort reframing sometimes just about absorbing be okay here's your bin throw all in when you're done go out there complete I compete, you know?

00:12:31: And this is okay.

00:12:32: Like her maybe that's the most extreme example but many of like...I don't know..like i've been in hotel rooms five minutes prior to departure and people are bawling their eyes out just super stressed coming up with all sorts excuses or reasons why today it not a day At some point, I mean there's a reason why they're elite athletes.

00:13:04: They perform and function as soon as like... ...they get into this mode.

00:13:09: you can tell me more about that or the listeners more about it.

00:13:13: at some point.

00:13:13: is automatic autopilot whatever takes over And its there to deliver but maybe some athlete just need and venting before, um... And then it's okay.

00:13:28: So I understood like sometimes yeah i'm a shrink but also bin that's ok.

00:13:34: It

00:13:36: is an interesting way you could argue.

00:13:38: generally the objective people seek out when they go see your shrink in terms of if look at objectively dehumanizing it kind-of just go to dump your problems Initially and then realize okay, the actual point is here.

00:13:59: Okay I need to kind of take that trash And work with it and build something new.

00:14:03: yeah like.

00:14:04: i do think outside Of um of competition like outside off Like also this like time limited zone you're in because?

00:14:11: I mean if It's like right prior to departure like we don't have much Time.

00:14:15: so what can I do like a can come up with like A nice intervention or we can have like a nice chat about it, because in ten minutes the freaking bus leaves and then two hours from now there's call room.

00:14:27: You know so that is not much time.

00:14:29: So I do think just taking things in being okay It's ok to let out its fine Like you're gonna be OK Is The only thing maybe i can come up with at some point.

00:14:42: of course maybe can throw in a couple sentences that sound smart, and I hope they get through.

00:14:54: But you don't want to lie.

00:14:57: this is not always easy for me as well like doing olympics for example And i was like okay that better works because if it doesn't work we have to wait four years.

00:15:06: To do again puts me under pressure as well.

00:15:10: It's like, oh shoot!

00:15:11: Like okay.

00:15:12: I hope this is going to be an OK intervention just by listening and being the bin.

00:15:20: but yeah sometimes it's also filled with a good belief that this will work out.

00:15:29: You mentioned the Olympics.

00:15:31: would be a miss of asking which olympics did you go?

00:15:37: What was

00:15:37: your role?

00:15:38: Paris in twenty four

00:15:39: And I was there with the team, the middle distance running team.

00:15:45: So we had like a couple of athletes from different countries and so it wasn't that with them or something total of six or seven athletes?

00:15:55: We have been here yeah, and I was in touch Yeah With with them on their phone near The Village In the stadium wherever It Was Actually Possible.

00:16:08: So then you are probably at the prime position of The intersection between human nature and Absolute peak performance.

00:16:24: I mean anybody who's standing outside will think that whoever gets to the Olympics, Whoever has made it to the olympics is At the pinnacle Of any sport?

00:16:33: Is That the pinnicle of what Human Performance is capable of?

00:16:37: And

00:16:39: here you are sharing very honestly that, mental breakdowns happen even to the very best.

00:16:47: How does it make us feel as a sports fan?

00:16:50: Are we able sit in this stadium and enjoy our performance?

00:16:54: or just like Jesus Christ?

00:16:56: Not at all!

00:16:57: I'm not a sport fan when i am on stage watching an athlete.

00:17:09: Okay, like on the one hand it makes sports a little more human and maybe before... Like as a kid or also in my early twenties I was.. Maybe when i thought about elite athletes.

00:17:22: I had this superhuman mind And over the years working with these superhumans I understood they are very good at what they do.

00:17:32: of course quite extreme At What They Do is outstandingly great But in the end, they're still humans.

00:17:40: So that helped anyway to me also work with you like of course if You worked was an athlete decorated without many titles and everything your house yourself.

00:17:50: Okay What in the world can I contribute here?

00:17:54: Like what can be my role And understanding That maybe i have an expertise In another area and the athletes seeks for them.

00:18:02: that Helped Me Also understanding this is just a human being.

00:18:07: But when being in the stadium and watching them, I'm quite aware of like... ...them being vulnerable.

00:18:16: And then knowing okay that mental breakdown just happened ninety minutes ago.

00:18:21: now we see them on track!

00:18:23: It's better.

00:18:23: hope it is working out now.

00:18:25: So i am not relaxed at all Like im super stressed During olympics where was sitting infront of a stadium.

00:18:33: this is too much.

00:18:34: This felt the pressure I love when you had this episode with Dan, your former coach and he was talking about taking it personal.

00:18:47: At least that's my definition as a sports psychologist – i take it personally too!

00:18:51: And if they don't perform or have physiological problems everything is fine…i take it super personal like oh shit what did i do wrong?

00:18:59: What did we miss?

00:19:02: This thought of what did we missed is haunting.

00:19:07: It's the same time it always kind of pushes you, I think to also go mental in a way and work quite hard.

00:19:13: But... In twenty-four during the Olympics at quite some moments where was like okay this is tough!

00:19:21: And this feels like its kinda hard to switch off.

00:19:26: Well you brought up Dan and i asked Dan his question.

00:19:28: but then that leads me to wonder If you're this nervous and your so invested in the competition, then yours there that your own stomach is almost twisting which we should probably get into.

00:19:40: Who do YOU feel?

00:19:41: That you are competing against.

00:19:43: That's a good one!

00:19:45: I don't think...I'm competing against anyone but i let the athlete down if he isn't able to perform mentally on level it was possible at that particular day.

00:19:59: I failed.

00:20:03: For seeing that, i should have known what's coming even though rationally this is like no shrink in the entire world is able to... We can't possibly know whats gonna happen in the future but i do feel like i should've known better.. i should've prepared the athlete better and thought of it.

00:20:26: That was on my mind right there.

00:20:29: Interesting because Objectively, you have to know that this is a crock of shit.

00:20:34: I mean it's impossible because even if you thought of it for that athlete then be able to pull up in the moment That...that is kind of impossible which makes so much of A tricky science workin' In my view right?

00:20:52: Because your ultimate subjective science trying to objectivise things or come up with objective theories.

00:21:01: Is that accurate?

00:21:03: Absolutely, yeah I would fully agree but it doesn't... That's what i meant like..I rationally understand and I rationally know my science is responsible for in a way.

00:21:23: But then if don't strive for the perfect competition self-management in that particular athlete, like trying to come up with a perfect skill set.

00:21:37: To cope with whatever comes your way... ...to fight whatever obstacle you face?

00:21:43: Why am I working at Leedsports then if that's not my ultimate

00:21:46: goal?".

00:21:46: I agree but i would counter and say that you're probably not applying your own objectivity enough in that situation!

00:21:57: Who is your trash

00:21:58: can?!

00:21:59: Who is your trashcan?

00:22:00: How do you then go and deal with that situation, um... And basically apply what YOU do or what you ask YOUR athlete to do to yourself.

00:22:12: Well in Paris I'll probably argue a couple of glasses of wine was a good trash can!

00:22:20: That just works for maybe a couple days so we could too.. That's nothing i should be doing regularly and I don't.

00:22:28: And, um...I do work with a psychologist myself like someone where i go to?

00:22:45: Where can be weak?

00:22:48: maybe for quite a long time and started doing that in twenty, twenty-four like basically after the Olympics.

00:23:03: And definitely feel like it's helping.

00:23:05: um...and I use yeah you It sounds bad if i say like a user or like a trashcan but also used that space sometimes suggests You know?

00:23:17: I don't want to hear what could do differently.

00:23:20: Look at alternatives whatever.

00:23:22: I just want to be angry for thirty minutes or what?

00:23:26: wouldn't it be sad?

00:23:28: Or would you wanna be pissed off and its okay.

00:23:31: You know, like if i do that with my wife at some point its not ok.

00:23:35: so how much longer is this going on?

00:23:37: And then understand because why will she listen to me being all pissed for two or three nights of the week?

00:23:48: So thats why i think its important also too have this sort of space

00:23:54: Which is amazing because I mean, personally.

00:23:58: So in need of harmony and my life And trying to solve situations when they're not going right?

00:24:06: You know i can never sit there with My wife.

00:24:10: our language love languages food Right.

00:24:12: so if i really cock something up and i Can't get it across at my inner pride doesn't allow me To express myself.

00:24:21: i cook a meal And I presented to her and say nothing.

00:24:24: It's just like, I'm sorry is kind of the language there.

00:24:28: but if you would say that a large part of your work... How was it sustainable for you two actually go take athletes sorrows?

00:24:44: Kindof not taking them personal knowing that athletes need solve their own shit Right.

00:24:53: I mean, in the end that's really what it boils down to right?

00:24:56: You can only solve your own shit.

00:24:57: That really is something.

00:24:59: but giving that space To the process Would mean there are a lot of uncomfortable Sessions that lead up to that.

00:25:08: like where do you find that endurance and where did you find?

00:25:12: That peace of mind for yourself to be able to deal with that?

00:25:15: over a long time?

00:25:16: i enjoy that sort of process.

00:25:18: i enjoy being part of supporting athletes by solving their own shit.

00:25:24: Because as you said, in order to be able do this... You have go through some tough times with discomfort probably like facing things that don't want a face and being there creating safe space where you can actually surrender or face discomfort.

00:25:48: That's something I truly enjoy as maybe, as silly or strange it sounds.

00:25:56: But I like to be able to help them reflect and talk about things they may feel uncomfortable talking because i'd like create that sort of space where there are not raided in any way... Where they just have the opportunity even though that might require them to face tough session or a tough call, or tough chat we have.

00:26:29: And... That's something I enjoy period and it doesn't feel like work in the way It feels hard on me.

00:26:47: so i rather Sam, what's that?

00:26:52: You brought up discomfort and I have this discussion over-and-over again.

00:26:58: Of course... Jesus!

00:27:01: I'm a retired triathlete of course.

00:27:03: Ofcourse the comfort is part my life but in order to proceed In order move on..in order grow ..In your opinion And experience actually more than anything Does it always has be connected to some sort of discomfort?

00:27:27: I mean, obviously us two.

00:27:31: we've discussed that multiple times in the past as well.

00:27:34: And i came up with a blank.

00:27:40: yes because um...I don't see this comfort as negative or as harmful anyway and part of growing.

00:27:55: And discomfort is also necessary if you want to do something that hasn't been done, like I have the... Like in my experience working with not just endurance athletes but maybe like athletes and any kind You'll always face something ...you may be If you had a chance to choose , you would've not chosen But you confronted it .You're exposed To It!

00:28:19: Sometimes being exposed to Something doesn't always feel comfortable.

00:28:23: Sometimes it feels uncomfortable, so in order to grow and on all two be successful you better make sure To have the right instruments.

00:28:34: that has the right weapons to face dad And That's why bluntly say speaking I do think its important and It's necessary and it's essential to deal with this comfort.

00:28:51: Yes, if you want to be top in the world.

00:28:53: You better get used too.

00:28:55: I feel like it's and from the experience i've made with very successful athletes they're almost seeking discomfort as a challenge To me that what growth is about Like...you won't grow If at some point fight something.

00:29:16: You better be able to do this, and you'd better find some peace by dealing with discomfort.

00:29:26: And I mean...you asked Dan what separates the greatest from maybe silver medal winners?

00:29:47: all over it, like trying to find the best possible way to deal with discomfort.

00:29:55: Well because... It is kind of this weird contrast that I was on a call this morning and there was film maker who tried describe athletes as demigods because that is exactly how you said in your youth, they're standing there kind of these Greek fighters who go into the arena.

00:30:27: Is that maybe the ultimate superpower?

00:30:30: That they can go from being so low to being so laser focused within ninety minutes From wanting to quit and retire To scoring a game winning goal all in this space over couple hours Exactly.

00:30:44: but isn't it super fascinating?

00:30:47: I mean, you

00:30:47: were one of them.

00:30:49: Like maybe at this point if i'm allowed like did You feel like there was normal that you were able to be laser focused even though?

00:30:56: Maybe a day before You weren't in different headspace but then like on the day of the competition you were Able To Be Laser-Focused.

00:31:04: Did You Regard?

00:31:05: That Is Normal

00:31:06: Of Course I Mean.

00:31:07: There Was My Job.

00:31:08: That's What I had to do and I only know that it's weird because to This Day The People Who Are Closest to me Really Struggle with the ups and downs, right?

00:31:19: For me it's totally normal to have an argument.

00:31:24: I'll tell you what...I was in Paris this weekend running a half marathon And there were some guy who is in The Start Gates

00:31:35: Who

00:31:36: wanted to get his friend In- we were literally like livestock about be slaughtered.

00:31:41: It was super tight I think it was five degrees in the morning, and we were hot standing little singlets.

00:31:47: That's how many people there will.

00:31:48: is just like this radiating heat And this one guy wanted to be two meters across and he yanked my arm and try To pull me across and i was kind of like dude what?

00:31:59: What the fuck!

00:32:00: What are you doing

00:32:01: here?!

00:32:02: And He got super aggressive and he said don't touch Me all right Dude?

00:32:06: You Just Touched Me.

00:32:08: It Became Like This Weird One Up Right.

00:32:12: Two minutes later, I was hugging the guy and saying hey dude.

00:32:15: Let's have a great race let's go.

00:32:17: you know kind of thing And like this is such a constant in my life that i am super low Super aggressive super...I don't know out-of-balance.

00:32:29: and then next moment I'm In a happy place because I perform from A Happy Place.

00:32:34: That's always been My Thing.

00:32:35: I need to be in a good space?

00:32:36: I Need To Be in a Happy Place and I get there Like This and I can just let Go Of Everything It Was and just kind of forget about any details, not hold on to things.

00:32:46: But that was definitely my thing And I only know it because everyone else thinks That's weird whereas for me It is totally normal.

00:32:56: Yeah i know you regarded as normal but like how fascinating i find with other athletes who found their own way or approach this laser-focused attitude, like being able to be that laser focused and understanding.

00:33:23: maybe for you need the ups and downs.

00:33:25: And it's not hurting in any way but still allows you as I said a happy place where you have to perform well.

00:33:35: I love the challenge too of finding out what an athlete needs.

00:33:42: Athletes I work with also need the happy place.

00:33:44: Some need the retirement thought, some need like some sort of aggressive behavior but always understanding what is it that you need to be able to pull something off that's outstandingly good?

00:33:58: That's so much fun!

00:33:59: I would say for me... The penny dropping right there because you talk about needs in life all the time.

00:34:10: we're surrounded by wants and you are the one looking for the needs.

00:34:17: And maybe we can go into that.

00:34:21: when you say, We need some kind of discomfort to grow?

00:34:25: How do I not fall in the trap Of always needing discomfort because we think That's The One thing will make us progress?

00:34:34: You know the old thinking Okay i have to pay Into the pain bank today In order To be a better athlete.

00:34:42: Like, how do we find the balance between letting go and being in this state to overcome discomfort but not artificially creating it?

00:34:53: Thinking that's what we need to get better.

00:34:56: Because I feel like by artificially created you're neglecting the need because then your'e not asking for a need inside of anymore.

00:35:05: You are just trying to reproduce something which worked in particular situation.

00:35:11: Sometimes discomfort is needed and maybe you feel the need of fighting this comfort, but that doesn't apply twenty-four seven Monday till Sunday.

00:35:20: Not at all!

00:35:21: And it's always about understanding what my needs are today?

00:35:25: What does I need?

00:35:28: Asking a question over and over again... I have an idea or an understanding where it's not always discomfort There will not always be the need for discomfort.

00:35:42: Sometimes there would also be a need of happy place, or I know joke... Or whatever!

00:35:50: One athlete that a handball player was working with in training.

00:35:56: he looked for discomfort and challenge for obstacles Right before game.

00:36:02: we'd find each other at locker room talking about YouTube videos, because he had to talk about like whatever's new on YouTube and it showed me those YouTubers.

00:36:10: And I have no idea but was happy to be in the other side of him... He was so happy you know?

00:36:17: To share this!

00:36:18: You needed such a happy place Because they understood that need for game day is being in a happy space.

00:36:27: There wasn't this company who didn't force himself into some sort ready approach, whatever.

00:36:35: But on an unusual training day I should have come up with a YouTube video.

00:36:39: he would've kicked me out of the gym right away.

00:36:43: it's like what the fuck are you doing?

00:36:44: Like i don't want to see if a stupid youtube video is here for work and need some hard things.

00:36:51: but game day completely different To me was one of the most intelligent players ever worked because they did understand his needs quite well Not from the very first day in his career and he tried a couple years to deal with like two to create this like a mindset of discomfort on game Day, but understood at some point.

00:37:12: That's that's not helping because it doesn't like He couldn't free his mind as much is needed too to perform.

00:37:18: so you he understood okay?

00:37:19: I might need something else into me.

00:37:21: thats That's what sports psychology is about as you said, like understanding needs trying to make sure.

00:37:27: okay what do I need to do?

00:37:29: To create an environment where my needs are met.

00:37:34: What am i responsible for in order to meet my needs?

00:37:40: Strangely the image of The Lion chasing you kind of evolutionary picture comes into mind that You're ready of the surroundings.

00:37:55: But you're not continuously practicing your hundred meters, like one after another until eventually find a line that will come again because you are

00:38:04: tired.

00:38:05: You spoke about handball and track-and-field athletes who have covered some kind of triathlon.

00:38:12: You yourself were an individual player in terms of tennis.

00:38:16: Talk to me about differences Because I think it's one thing To get yourself into this mindset.

00:38:23: But being a part of the team is an interesting construct that I've only experienced through friends and second-hand emotions.

00:38:33: How important, even for individual athletes to have some sort of team in a broader sense?

00:38:42: Important on many different levels.

00:38:46: if we talk about individuals or individual athletes here... me back off a little bit.

00:38:52: I do think for an individual athlete, self-responsibility comes first.

00:38:57: and if i understand that um...I need a team around me because like it will help to be part of my self responsible analysis then something can use.

00:39:16: quite well you talked about differences between like team sports and individual sport.

00:39:25: And I do think in a team sport, the psychological requirements are different than in individuals' sports because... ...I always argue as a team athlete You can have a bad day and your team still wins!

00:39:44: It cannot be your best You cannot be in the best possible shape and you can still win because maybe I know, do something outstandingly technically.

00:39:57: And you still score goal or something for you that would have never worked if like you were just seven percent.

00:40:03: That's not true.

00:40:04: But it was a lot of days where

00:40:06: things didn't go my way now?

00:40:08: No, that's what I mean by like... If you're just at like seventy percent physiologically, if you missed, I don't get many trainings.

00:40:15: Um, I do think as an endurance athlete, For example It's way harder for you to be able to perform than it is maybe, a team sport athlete.

00:40:27: Because you can rely on your teammates and some individual skill set that technically you have or technically you can't rely on.

00:40:38: I'm not saying you cannot have bad day Sorry, but please.

00:40:44: No no fair enough I mean.

00:40:45: the thing is of course and i don't think anybody's ever at seventy percent.

00:40:49: once we're talking about peak performance you know?

00:40:51: I think the margins are much smaller.

00:40:53: But I would kind of agree in a team sense that You can be subbed In-and out And really very short punctual Performance Of skill That you've previously acquired Sometimes even paired with A little bit of luck which I Think Is generally underestimated in performance in most fields.

00:41:15: But yeah, I think i get the point you're trying to make.

00:41:20: Yeah but originally we were asking like how important it is for an individual athlete To work with a team or go together and gather a team around them Right?

00:41:30: Or was just like a staff who also likes working with other athletes closely.

00:41:38: Well... Very individual, but I think a lot of people look at Iron Man for instance right and i'll Look it.

00:41:46: I looked age group triathletes which I'm sure there are quite few listening.

00:41:52: really would like to get your perspective on how important the interdependencies Of People.

00:42:01: you know that you come together in order To Get The Most Out Of Yourself But You Know You Have This Kind Of Takes A Village To Raise A Child takes a village to raise an athlete kind of mentality.

00:42:13: And what your perspective is and your experience?

00:42:16: Honestly, my experience there's not one experience I can share because I agree with you also was like the Village metaphor that I met athletes in work with athletes who benefit benefited massively by having team around them working without other athletes closely.

00:42:40: But I also worked with athletes who were in some sort of a team environment but understood, and now we're talking about needs again that this didn't help.

00:42:50: It didn't meet their needs it didn't support them the way they would have liked to train or rather created social pressure whatever And there was much better off training by themselves just having like maybe I know having their the physio all the time and like they shrink on that coach.

00:43:11: And there were fine with it, but didn't need to sort of like challenge in training.

00:43:15: or did you need a training partner was always there too push them?

00:43:20: So again, no one repeating myself here i think is an important two understand what he said that I mean maybe be open towards trying out different set ups.

00:43:32: But don't thing this like an answer.

00:43:35: approach applies everyone Because, I mean as humans we are quite different in how we pursue or approach things.

00:43:48: So i do think it's important to understand what is.

00:43:52: that helps me?

00:43:53: Do you think something like this was born with?

00:43:56: In terms of whether we function as a team player and an individual athlete?

00:44:01: let us start with that!

00:44:04: Well it always argues nature and nurture.

00:44:06: I think it said that all like psychological discussion about nature and nurture, of course.

00:44:11: That's something you're born with because personality traits lay somewhere within us but at the same time they also flourish in a way or even don't flourish by the way we are being raised through our childhood to youth so its nature.

00:44:36: Yeah, it's just important to acknowledge that and it's important to understand this is how it works.

00:44:42: There isn't one approach... ...that helps or works for everyone And sometimes you have a very brave call I think because maybe you need to leave the perfect setup Because its not the perfect set up.

00:44:56: but again i come back in my understanding The most successful athletes was allowed work with were quite good at figuring themselves out.

00:45:10: Yeah, I would argue that's probably a key to long term success but the...I feel like sports and perhaps in a larger way life in general certainly also on the business world is set of bets you take hoping they will pay off right?

00:45:27: Like give your very bland example it kind Endurance sports, but you change your bike position hoping that you'll be able to gain more power.

00:45:41: Be more aerodynamic and at the same time just be really efficient on the bike.

00:45:46: right?

00:45:46: if you look at fighting You look at martial arts.

00:45:52: an athlete starts a new technique A different approach too His art in order To try to refine this skill But he doesn't know If you will ever master it enough in order to reap the fruits of that journey, right?

00:46:09: And so I think that's probably a large part Of sports.

00:46:14: In general that you like you say take a risk and hope for the best.

00:46:19: Yeah But then i think That's that's A perfect example For Like The Brave Call When I refer To Like The brave call You Have To Make the best horse to bet on.

00:46:36: And sometimes that's what it requires, you can always like... You don't know whats gonna happen in twenty-twenty eight if you change coaches or as you said work a new technique and make massive adjustment there.

00:46:54: but thats also fun dont'you think?

00:46:57: Sometimes being brave when trying out something new And actually trying to figure it out best possible way.

00:47:05: Absolutely, but I would argue that is a lot more fun if you figure it and works because essentially going on the professional athlete career Is taking a bet?

00:47:17: That you hope your childhood dream will come off You'll one day win a trophy or something.

00:47:24: How do you deal with the fact that you sometimes, I'm assuming.

00:47:34: Shouldn't assume but know someone's dream is not within their realms or actions are not radical enough to line up?

00:47:49: You're holding some fragile dreams in your hands being a part of team and how do deal with situation?

00:48:00: One athlete just like told me once, you're... I don't know how she phrased it but basically said usually tell the things that i dont want to hear.

00:48:13: And for me there was a big compliment he could make.

00:48:20: so this is how we answer your question and try be nice and kind and polite But I usually try to be as honest and as transparent.

00:48:34: And if this person talks about the Olympics, but behaves like regional championships then i tell her or tell him please let's not waste your time my time that won't work for me Of course, I can know but...I always try to be as openly honest as i can.

00:49:06: And I do think that's quite fair even when dealing with fragile dreams and all these sort of things because it is not helping the athlete or myself just kind because you're too afraid to speak out the truth.

00:49:27: You spoke about being a coach and then finding the sports psychology angle more engaging, down your alley let's call it?

00:49:39: I remember being in a coaching environment before i was remotely coached.

00:49:44: these were my early days that say first ten years of my career coaches saying he doesn't have it she Doesn't have the champions mindset.

00:50:02: She is Never going to make it because she's so talented, but she's not willing to act on her talent.

00:50:09: What do you say when people come with a predetermined approach?

00:50:15: To an athletic career

00:50:18: A challenge that I like always like.

00:50:22: if that Of course, I mean if someone tells me of course it does something to you.

00:50:30: You take on in perspective and you have to actively pull yourself away from that presumptuous way.

00:50:41: how do you look at the athlete?

00:50:45: But i would like to understand why is being said about this athlete?

00:50:52: so thats what i mean.

00:50:54: I try to understand, okay why is that assumption out there?

00:50:59: And then like...I always am eager to fight that assumption together with the athlete.

00:51:06: Okay maybe this what believed about you?

00:51:10: let's prove them wrong.

00:51:14: and That usually my first sort of approach To not be led by this assumption, but rather develop some sort of headspace where you want to fight it and then see okay is that possible.

00:51:31: But I mean have also been on the side like ok well said he she doesn't have it.

00:51:38: That's nothing i would never say in an athlete.

00:51:42: but maybe come up with examples trying to prove a point.

00:51:50: Yeah, exactly.

00:51:54: Here you were saying how direct do like to be so?

00:51:57: Do you believe a champion can be made?

00:51:59: they are shaped not meet.

00:52:01: You're like.

00:52:02: I think your born with likes some sort of Champion gene and then that needs to be shaped And it's better shape by the perfect environment.

00:52:12: and Then you see a champion.

00:52:15: Oh there we go Henning.

00:52:16: i love The insights i love the Openness which is shared.

00:52:22: Our closing tradition, as you know is to ask YOU when the last time was that you went mental.

00:52:32: Last weekend?

00:52:34: I'm preparing for a marathon right now and on Sunday i realized like shit actually am in really good shape.

00:52:42: That's a nice discovery!

00:52:45: Yeah but the marathon five weeks away.

00:52:46: it was like how in the world to like keep this shape and how in the world I'm able to not fuck it up.

00:52:54: So, i got super nervous!

00:52:56: I got super stressed... Up to a point where a cold athlete of mine who's also coach was like okay How about my consult?

00:53:05: Like..I consult you for free now And you write me a freaking training plan next five weeks because if you don't do that then I gonna fuck it.

00:53:13: so That was last time when I went mental.

00:53:19: There you go slightly different to your definition.

00:53:21: You gave earlier, but I do love the passion is for sure involved.

00:53:26: And then good luck with a marathon prep and thanks.

00:53:29: Thanks for your insights

00:53:46: Thankyou.