Inside the Mind of a Relentless Champion - Alistair Brownlee

00:00:00: I'd far prefer to be the absolute best i could, being at the most out of myself than just rumble along for ten years and not do that.

00:00:08: remember looking around at other people training round me thinking, yeah they're going to get the start line of this race or the Olympic Games at ninety-five percent.

00:00:16: And a lot of advice that are getting from people around them is make sure you don't get injured and then get into the startline at ninety five per cent.

00:00:22: but I would feel it's an aberration if i got to the Olympic Start Line at ninety one percent.

00:00:27: You know thats not what im here to do.

00:00:29: Im here there at ninety nine point.

00:00:32: nine per cent Of course If I go to hundred one per cent.

00:00:35: Thats part of that parcel

00:00:50: Frodeno going mental, a passion project of mine.

00:00:54: and where else would I start?

00:00:57: but were it all started for me?

00:00:59: Alistair Brownlee the man who has shaped away we look at racing triathlon multiple world champion and two-time Olympic gold medalist.

00:01:09: Known for his fearless racing and relentless grit, he has also one of the sharpest minds in sports which having hung up the tri-suit professionally is now putting to good use in its charity business And sporting administration work Which we'll hear about today.

00:01:24: big welcome to this show To my old adversary Alistair Brownlee.

00:01:28: All right Alistar I would actually love to start in Bahrain.

00:01:34: twenty twenty two Of all places And I think it's probably the first time you and I went for a casual bike ride together somewhere through the desert.

00:01:44: It felt like two old guys at that stage kind of fighting injury, fighting the time catching up with us... ...and after all this time i wasn't sure if we'd go out in a sprint to push each other into the well or if which pushed eachother onto oncoming traffic.

00:02:00: You know?

00:02:02: One those moments was really unique because I was like, gee he's not a half bad bloke.

00:02:12: It was something

00:02:14: where

00:02:15: you know your sporting days.

00:02:16: for me... You still are the definition of a killer Like you raced fierce, you were aggressive and relentless about it And often killed athletes before they even went.

00:02:31: Did you ever see yourself like that?

00:02:35: A big question to start with.

00:02:38: But yeah, it's been a few more years now so even older and probably both are more injury laden than we were in Bahrain.

00:02:48: but yes its being good to catch up a few times when the opportunities have allowed.

00:02:53: since did I see myself as kind of a killer?

00:02:59: No i actually didn't Basically always what.

00:03:05: I had a constant kind of equation running in my head as thinking if i do this, What gives me the best possible probability?

00:03:12: Of winning.

00:03:13: This race And actually that only ever started Well might add there was two parts to that.

00:03:20: one Was how can I get to the start line being them best prepared like possibly can be?

00:03:25: and really That was my motivation very kind internal motivation to do everything that I could.

00:03:31: Motivational obsession, whatever you want to call it.

00:03:34: and then secondly in the race i'd be constantly thinking what here allows me to have the best probability of winning this thing?

00:03:43: There was quite a lot times when I stood on the start line and thought that probability is like nought point more percent.

00:03:49: but if it were to happen A B C D E F would have to happen!

00:03:52: And I'm going.

00:03:57: Yeah, you know in terms of being a killer.

00:03:59: I guess i was very clinical about it an enormous desire to win after putting so much hard work and effort into beforehand.

00:04:11: but yeah that really is just kind of clinical approach for getting the best performance.

00:04:19: It's remarkable right?

00:04:21: The thing is often about perspective.

00:04:27: Yeah, it sounds so calculated and almost like in retrospect.

00:04:31: that's how you'd want to do.

00:04:33: I just feel when we were in our twenties... It seems such a mature approach to go about this.

00:04:42: Maybe!

00:04:43: There is probably an element of looking back on it with rose tinted glasses now isn't there?

00:04:46: With the benefit of hindsight and reflection but yeah very much was my approach.

00:04:55: what do i need today to get the best possible result out of it.

00:04:59: And yeah, It was funny that things around beating people before I even started...I mean and i never really thought about or very rarely thought about you know there's only a few occasions like remember one race before the Olympics in London in kitsball and thinking i'm going to run this to the line.

00:05:21: so you know everyone looks at this result and thinks basically we've got no chance of beating him.

00:05:26: but apart from that uh I actually didn't calculate anything at all.

00:05:31: Some other kind of friends of mine said yeah, you were quite you know such an overbearing character in this and that?

00:05:38: And I never actually... That was really intentional!

00:05:45: Those kind of things gave momentum, don't they?

00:05:48: And you know that some stories come out.

00:05:53: It's like Chinese whispers a story builds on a story and it has happened to the other extreme as well.

00:05:59: actually now I've got complete good guy extreme.

00:06:02: there is this ridiculous local.

00:06:05: Apparently I stopped during a running race to like rescue a sheep or something.

00:06:11: And it's no chance with anyone who ever knows me, knows that A i'd never stop and B definitely not to rescue a sheep.

00:06:18: so yeah... I think probably exaggeration and Chinese whispers go both ways.

00:06:25: Is the proverbial sheep of your mates calling Johnny a Sheep?

00:06:29: The only time you've ever stopped anyway?

00:06:30: Yeah

00:06:30: exactly!

00:06:31: No this was a sheep of the woolly variety.

00:06:35: I think the more you plan that sort of stuff, the less it comes across as genuine.

00:06:41: It is kind of just a natural flow where... You're in the zone and don't even see those kinds things so they just flows along.

00:06:49: Anyways for me it's a huge pleasure to have you on as our first guest of Ferdinand Going Mental, in this case Brownlee going mental.

00:06:58: And we are gonna introduce a signature question When is the last time you went absolutely mental?

00:07:08: In any sense, sports business in your private life.

00:07:13: What's what's a moment You wouldn't be willing to share?

00:07:18: I think yeah funnily enough me going mental always relates like my own frustrations of doing things really badly and really annoying.

00:07:26: so It's frustrating things.

00:07:29: I can remember exactly what was the last thing but I can guarantee almost certainly it was about like something to do with bike mechanics and i needed to get as we've all been, and i need to Do some things to deal with a bike.

00:07:43: I don't know.

00:07:43: Like change your tire or something within ten minutes And just something wasn't working for no apparent reason then?

00:07:51: I get more frustrated.

00:07:53: So yeah It would have been something along those lines.

00:07:56: Yeah my uh... My frustration primarily comes from my lack of ability do things, and I'm trying to do things in a short period of time so not be late basically.

00:08:09: Yeah i can very much relate to both of those things.

00:08:11: actually the one thing on bike mechanics not working or by computer not being charged something like that just drives me absolutely up the wall.

00:08:21: it can definitely relate.

00:08:23: take us Leads where you kind of built a training group and you build or were part of building a training center in building.

00:08:33: the environment that you've spoken about many times has helped shape u. And it's kind of inspired much your career, will use someone that believe in the agency of others and live through that all.

00:08:47: did you have to micromanage every angle?

00:08:50: situation was at a mixture for you?

00:08:55: Yeah, I guess leads to start with came about or the training group and lead in a very kind of Maybe unorganized isn't the right way but are kind of authentic Authentic kind of approach too.

00:09:11: Yeah You know we've got a group going on to start.

00:09:13: With literally it was a few of us women in a twenty three meter pool In our combination of like Johnny me and a couple other people training properly and a couple of lecturers from the university, And then over this space for few years.

00:09:31: A few students came in if you people come to join us because joining me were being successful.

00:09:37: So it changed fast and there was kind of never any oversight To think about who could join or couldn't join.

00:09:44: It's all like oh This is really cool that People are joining.

00:09:53: an implicit, at least thing that we were completely open.

00:09:58: You know?

00:09:58: We had nothing to hide from a training point of view or what we're doing wasn't particularly special because the philosophy is just turn up and train hard and get the work done.

00:10:08: as long people did it in their way they are welcome to participate.

00:10:12: I guess Did i really micro manage anything?

00:10:17: no definitely not a manager but there was I guess, explicit expectation that if you were there to work hard ultimately do your best and kind of not get in the way.

00:10:33: And for a lot time.

00:10:34: i think that worked really well.

00:10:38: Of course looking back on any managerial situation or team situation... transformational change of teams and units.

00:10:54: We could have done things a lot better, right?

00:10:56: You know there could've been a better approach to gating the people who were right or not but you never knew that at start working out actually kind what we're about maybe tailoring things more.

00:11:13: I think still A fair point to be made that for some years there it was if not ever, you know the most successful kind of training environment.

00:11:25: maybe There's never been in triathlon.

00:11:27: The athletes did it ultimately produced over those years.

00:11:30: So yeah I don't know Maybe he shouldn't change too much

00:11:34: and how things come about.

00:11:37: That are really Not that easy to predict.

00:11:40: And Really?

00:11:41: You can just say if you changed input a then that will in turn change.

00:11:46: the output comes in a positive way.

00:11:50: And so I do sometimes wonder, you speak that it seems like very organic flow to things whereas its become one of those cliches.

00:11:58: everybody says trains smarter not harder.

00:12:02: is ya know one of the calendar kind sayings that you wake up on Monday morning and think about but You did push the envelope Like no-one else.

00:12:16: You know, looking back in hindsight that was what really changed not only you but also the sport of triathlon altogether.

00:12:24: I think your probably someone who pushed their absolute ceiling to The furthest possible degrees.

00:12:32: and do you think in hindsight maybe?

00:12:33: That is something that at times made you fly a little bit too close to the sun.

00:12:39: speaking of like dealing with injuries And kind of finding yourself Well, from my knowledge anyways.

00:12:45: From about two thousand and nine managing injuries constantly?

00:12:51: Yeah sure those are the different sizes of the same coin aren't they?

00:12:56: I was actually very aware that trade-off being told by a coach quite young.

00:13:05: Firstly, you can't train like that.

00:13:07: You'll never last very long and you need to train smarter than better.

00:13:10: otherwise because your not that talented.

00:13:13: so get anywhere.

00:13:14: you're going to basically be coached by

00:13:16: me.".

00:13:16: And I thought two things... The first thing was well actually being told this at like eighteen obviously don't believe in a limited career but I don't care.

00:13:30: If i'm the best athlete, I possibly can be in two years time and a retiring three-years' time.

00:13:34: that's great!

00:13:34: I'd far prefer to be... ...the absolute best I could being get the most out of myself than just rumble along for ten years And not do that.

00:13:45: So....and I knew it..I also remember looking around at other people training me thinking Yeah, they're gonna get to the start line of this race or the Olympic Games at ninety five percent and a lot Of advice.

00:13:58: They're getting from people around them is To make sure they don't get injured in the get-to-the-start Line up nine five percent.

00:14:03: but I would feel It's an aberration if i got two olympic start line at ninety Five percent.

00:14:10: you know that's not what?

00:14:11: I'm here to do on Here to get there at nineteen nine point nine percent And of course If I go to hundred one percent That's part of their parcel.

00:14:21: Yeah, as you point out I definitely did that a few times and yeah i didn't sit there at the time with um A cool head and think oh yeah.

00:14:31: You know never mind That's for trade-off.

00:14:32: I got very frustrated by it And worked through it and then and then did it all again.

00:14:37: but Um yeah, I Did absolutely push the envelope and that was uh kind of trade off?

00:14:44: Uh, I guess I was willing to make an.

00:14:47: Got me to where it got me ultimately and with a bit of luck as well that I happen to be in great shape for two Olympic games.

00:14:55: Yeah, you're here for good time not long-time somehow manage both but... Well kind

00:15:00: off!

00:15:02: You know literally my plan at eighteen was get the London Olympics try and win the London Olympics retire, go back to be an academic basically.

00:15:16: So yeah I mean if we'd had this conversation as an eighteen-nineteen year old someone said oh you know retired at a thirty six years old then you've got this long career way after you achieved your success in the olympics.

00:15:33: no that's a terrible idea.

00:15:35: i'm definitely not going do it.

00:15:37: but perspectives change don't they?

00:15:40: Yeah, absolutely.

00:15:41: And I mean that's it.

00:15:43: It's something that can relate to even though we approach approach things on a very different level.

00:15:50: Do you think like again?

00:15:52: You had a lot more short course success than then I did.

00:15:56: but the whole series format right like racing consistently over A season when they change.

00:16:02: kind of world titles like that just demanded consistency Over a Season and perhaps didn't allow for you to reach that absolute peak every single time, simply because you had to manage it more.

00:16:16: Is that something that to you feels like almost doing the gift of disservice?

00:16:24: That's betraying your physical gift by not being as fit-as-you possibly can be on a start line?

00:16:31: Yeah I guess you could argue that in one sense but And I know we both absolutely agree with this is that ultimately your job as an athlete and the guys who are really great athletes, you know like Your performance isn't in long distance.

00:16:46: And then the Olympics in Beijing You're ultimately...you have to prepare for their conditions on a day right?

00:16:52: It doesn't matter whether it's a long race or hot race or cold race Or a hilly race or its five races of one racer.

00:16:59: The best athletes Have got ability to do that.

00:17:02: That something you see across every sport And kind of sporting discipline that people, the real greats have an ability to win when it matters ultimately.

00:17:16: So yeah you know maybe who knows I was maybe a bit more predetermined to do one race every year or whatever might be?

00:17:26: Maybe i wasn't?

00:17:27: we don't know.

00:17:27: and there's other factors that come in but... The truth is all get together at the start.

00:17:34: Well, you know me and you can't get to that year in say yeah we only want one race over this distance on this day these weather conditions We have put up with what's there don't?

00:17:47: Yeah I mean it goes back a long time now.

00:17:50: doesn' t that change in sport?

00:17:52: i guess you probably saw more than me from his two thousand nine.

00:17:57: wasn't he first year of the world series happened A one race world championship to a multi-race series.

00:18:04: Yeah, absolutely I mean that's.

00:18:06: That's one thing.

00:18:07: i do have to go there Since you mentioned the two thousand eight olympics because you said you were preparing for London.

00:18:14: Do you remember what?

00:18:15: You said to me like the day after The two thousand and eight olympics

00:18:20: Can't say sorry.

00:18:22: And honestly I was only reminded of this Because I was having a chat to my best friend Felix about it and he's like, do you remember that guy?

00:18:31: He came up to me.

00:18:32: And he said You were lucky.

00:18:34: i had a bad day.

00:18:44: It must have been one of the closing parties somewhere in Beijing either way... The kind of racer you were at the time, like fearless

00:18:56: and

00:18:56: absolutely convinced.

00:18:58: You could win.

00:18:58: Like.

00:18:58: I absolutely love it.

00:18:59: i look at it now And i'm like gold yeah?

00:19:01: I want to put it there

00:19:03: but

00:19:04: in many many ways like.

00:19:08: Strangely enough if i'm very honest and i reflect on that moment There was a mental door That you kicked In like you are almost like what like an electric eel.

00:19:18: that just shell shocked me from that moment On because i was like Was I really lucky?

00:19:24: Like, if i look back on that insecurity they came across.

00:19:29: And again like in hindsight and it's been what twenty years... ...I kind of think about it.

00:19:33: you know.. It is a story that builds up to the story but.... ..it was something just forced me actually rebuild as an athlete.

00:19:43: Nowadays I can thank for it!

00:19:44: But back then there were some things there.

00:19:48: Do You Think That Attitude Was Maybe Your Greatest strength as a racer?

00:19:53: like consciously or subconsciously?

00:19:57: Yeah, no.

00:19:58: Well I think it was probably a strength just the kind of optimism of approach to things but probably not the greatest strengths...I mean i actually think that and this might be from my perspective you know you may feel very differently about I think that kind of confidence about winning plays a much smaller part to the performance picture than we actually think.

00:20:33: We talk about it, because it's something that isn't tangible or objective.

00:20:40: so you can try and quantify it like anything that is subjective, you can wait and talk about it.

00:20:48: And actually never really measure.

00:20:50: so... You tend to over-analyse and overweight it.

00:20:56: but yeah I mean when i reflect on times where I was racing well and not.. It was ninety nine percent physical.

00:21:08: Yeah, of course.

00:21:08: It's a self-fulfilling prophecy right you physically in great shape and that feeds into the psychological situation.

00:21:14: And but for me that was all That was part of the parcel.

00:21:18: um...and so they're kind of The mental side of it just almost didn't even really uh Even figure to me.

00:21:27: You know like I said i stood on start lines all the time thinking about no chance of winning this.

00:21:32: Uh..And so people you know too lots of people that would be kind of an under confidence And it didn't even, I very rarely thought about individual other people.

00:21:43: Of course a long time i was racing you alot or racing Javier Gomez but actually all that kind of irrelevant its like...i always on the start line at hundred percent and if i wasn´t then im just going to have find way get through that day.

00:22:01: The battle for me is kind of personally to be on that, to be there with the best I possibly could.

00:22:08: Yeah i get a feeling the amount of money some athletes tend to spend on sports psychologists would kinda be a waste too.

00:22:17: I'm assuming you never saw one did?

00:22:20: No no!

00:22:21: Never have.

00:22:23: yeah...I mean..i read an awful lot about the science and especially kind of more recently, like the behavioral economics and around that.

00:22:37: And I've got a real fascination of some of that.

00:22:41: behavioral economics work in looking at heuristics on how we approach decision making particularly.

00:22:46: And it was fascinating about what made us make good decisions especially in races?

00:22:51: How do you make great decisions with incomplete information under time pressure?

00:22:56: but yeah... In terms if we're just talking about that fundamental question of can having a conversation with someone give you some form of confidence over and above what you can get from doing the work?

00:23:12: for me, is there resounding?

00:23:15: no?

00:23:15: And more than that actually I thought well wait a minute.

00:23:19: If somebody gives me confidence in my conversations then it's like fake confidence.

00:23:22: real confidence comes when going out to do your job being happy And I don't want kind of a fake confidence.

00:23:31: So, you know that's very like shallow approach to it in lots ways but yeah.

00:23:36: so i looked at it.

00:23:38: I'd probably argue thats the difference between self-confidence and self belief right?

00:23:42: You created this true self-belief rather than a self confident.

00:23:48: You'd be reading my book?

00:23:50: I've got a whole chapter on that.

00:23:52: Absolutely, i am going to get your book!

00:23:54: Get your book...I loved your book.

00:23:55: honestly it was something..i had to google the sports.

00:23:59: if im very honest its commonwealth based sports and you don't live in commonwealth countries....you gotta figure your way around it.

00:24:06: There's a footballer who said that Michael Owen.

00:24:08: there is bit of him.

00:24:11: he has this really lovely analogy of self confidence and self belief which is good.

00:24:18: Yeah, and I mean there's a lot that.

00:24:20: but did you in all of your studying the science decision-making?

00:24:27: What is the science behind good decision making with incomplete information like inner race.

00:24:36: I mean, good decision-making under time pressure and incomplete information like that.

00:24:41: Ultimately you've got to rely on kind of mental models in a library as it were And they come from two things A, past experience.

00:24:52: B your imagination what those things could look like.

00:24:56: Some people might call visualisation.

00:24:58: But... You have to be able draw or assimilate them when you need it, at the time is right.

00:25:09: And so yeah I think having enough of those models and knowing how to get them as quickly as possible i think where that probably comes from It has to be super.

00:25:22: if you kind of thinking about two levels of conscious and subconscious decision making You know fundamentally in sport you have to be very good with a sub-conscious bit.

00:25:33: you know, your under pressure.

00:25:34: You're tired and probably not cognitively functioning as well as he'd like most of the time.

00:25:40: so I think yeah it has to be that um... Not say i was a good decision maker necessarily or got everything right but had a really interesting.

00:25:50: there's a case we made that you did

00:25:53: Well..not all the times

00:25:55: Yeah!

00:25:55: Of course you gotta get it right All The Time But I Think You Got It Right More Often Than Not.

00:26:02: To your book then, Relentless.

00:26:07: Highly recommended for anyone that hasn't yet read a bit of sports bible on athletes and the way they approach it in very different approaches.

00:26:14: Is there any one living or dead you wish could have had?

00:26:18: That wasn't in their.

00:26:23: I mean Of course i've had all kinds people who didn't want to speak with me.

00:26:32: And yeah, I think so.

00:26:36: two things.

00:26:36: First thing is i would have liked to have done actually spent time with people like the really special stuff was when i got to spend time doing things With people and they've got to really kind of appreciate that.

00:26:50: So Ronnie O'Sullivan's That might be a sport you or your listeners don't know about but it's snooker.

00:26:59: Yeah, yeah I went to his house and his mum cooked us dinner almost sat there and chatted over.

00:27:03: You know things like that were really special in it.

00:27:05: i think It gave me a much better understanding of him And the story The narrative kind of A deeper perspective.

00:27:14: So more on that even with people.

00:27:16: you know.

00:27:16: I interviewed Killin' Jornay.

00:27:18: you know way better to be going for a run with him somewhere i'm sure and talking through some of that decision making he's got brilliant.

00:27:26: bit about risk, and even more recent ones, I would like to have gone through a breadth of other sports you know from kind of free divers for example.

00:27:58: And another crazy thing.

00:28:00: so yeah i think that kind of breadth in diversity.

00:28:03: because what the question has really trying to answer was how much is this stuff?

00:28:07: That I thought about.

00:28:11: then You will also apply to triathlon training.

00:28:14: How does it cross over into other disciplines, how much or not?

00:28:18: and can I learn anything from that?

00:28:22: How different is

00:28:23: it?".

00:28:23: And so yeah.

00:28:24: You've got to go too as many people as you have to answer them.

00:28:27: Yeah absolutely!

00:28:29: There's five of six ways i want to go with this.

00:28:32: but first ask on the question did you ever had a role model like you mentioned Haile Geberselassie?

00:28:39: for me he was just... He was the ultimate user since it's been what, twenty years?

00:28:48: He was a track and field five ten K world record holder Olympic gold medalist.

00:28:54: Did you ever have our all model growing up?

00:28:56: or Was It really not part of your repertoire of motivations.

00:29:02: I think we kind did.

00:29:03: but And now You know i loved watching the olympics.

00:29:07: So um remember watching the Olympics as far backers Atlanta, I love watching the Tour de France and we were right in the middle of the Atlanta Armstrong era.

00:29:16: And seeing him dominate.

00:29:17: that was you know an early sporting memory for me across all Olympic sports.

00:29:23: but i think what really stood out to me if almost felt those kind of sporting people it was so far away from anything that I would ever achieve.

00:29:35: It was almost irrelevant.

00:29:37: So I think role models idols is kind of the wrong thing.

00:29:40: It was like, yeah I was watching that amazed by it and it was super entertaining.

00:29:46: And you know...I remember even as a seventeen year old talk about this alot Sorry if anyone heard its before but in two thousand five London won the bid to host the Olympics and i got told about it and thought that's super cool But is irrelevant for me because ive never been good enough.

00:30:02: be there Can't wait to watch the olympics People who were role models with people much closer to me.

00:30:10: It was, you know that a guy I swam with who pushed me day in and out someone Who i ran with at school?

00:30:18: He was older than them took me out running And um You know would race me up some hills and so and so people had A real kind of...I Had a relationship.

00:30:29: but also Yeah could kinda directly look up too and directly then compete within And I guess try and be, even if it was just in the middle of a swim set or around a muddy cross country field.

00:30:41: That that was...I think they're people who had an impact.

00:30:45: Yeah because both your parents are doctors right?

00:30:49: Like you know..you've mentioned your past.

00:30:52: You went to Cambridge for awhile like you have different path laid out probably gonna go back to being an academic.

00:31:04: And it's hardly like the Cinderella boxing story, you know if I wouldn't do this at Beyond The Streets?

00:31:10: Like what did think was then that drove from two thousand and five thinking maybe in two thousand twelve Olympics To three years later leading Beijing Olympics.

00:31:26: for a while I was like, where is this guy coming from?

00:31:29: To then kind of setting the triathlon world on fire and being pretty much... It was bigger news for a while there that when you lost a race than when you won one.

00:31:40: What do you think it was that drove you to make that change?

00:31:46: I think it's fascinating isn't it?

00:31:50: The whole thing about drive ...I think we oversimplify quite often.

00:31:57: I think it's really easy, because quite often when you get asked this question on a podcast or in the media.

00:32:04: You can imagine giving a few answers and that thing their media reports are is had this seminal moment as a sixteen year old And what isn't cool story actually might have met teacher at right time who inspired me do this cycling thing or i came across triathlon at the right moment.

00:32:28: you know so many factors and so, I think ultimately motivation every level is really really multifactorial.

00:32:38: And even in a space of it single session um he can be motivated by a bunch of factors.

00:32:44: you can stand on the side if to get to the pool even you can be motivated buy Whatever like the social factor and then you stand on a side of pool and into diving which is the worst bit all our days might be motivated by.

00:32:57: That's not really breakfast to have afterwards in them during the middle of it that he might motivated by competition racing person next year when, yeah i'm a little bit later you might be motivate by the other event thats coming up and that's they're really kinda deep drive and so it's like... really interesting, kind of interrelated sphere or those factors that drive you on but we go to like the big flashy one and talk about it a lot I think.

00:33:23: Well that's my experience... ...of it.

00:33:27: But in truth yeah i was motivated by different things at different times On different days for different reasons.

00:33:34: Most of them were an intrinsic love or obsession combination.

00:33:41: Uh, so what I wanted to do and push myself as hard as i could um And but at different times.

00:33:47: Yeah literally just trying to beat johnny or Trying to be in the right place for that next race Um But yeah there was no kind of big uh solid foundation To that really?

00:33:59: That that drove me to being athlete apart from it's something that I love doing wanting to Be good At

00:34:05: yeah, I would disagree because I think It is actually interesting.

00:34:10: It's yeah, maybe it doesn't sound sexy.

00:34:12: And maybe it's not the one moment where you're like oh my god this is The American Story of That Changed My Life.

00:34:16: but... ...it's what actually makes it relatable right?

00:34:19: Because I mean in the end.. ..it's just a performance that stacked on days and days and years uh-that kind of comes together rather than something external that comes to you!

00:34:33: And thats why i think its really fascinating.

00:34:37: Did you know find out though?

00:34:39: And my perspective changed.

00:34:41: I think if you'd asked me this question fifteen years ago, I would have said no.

00:34:45: to do all that work it has to be a solid genuine intrinsic motivator.

00:34:51: but actually i had changed.

00:34:53: people did have extrinsic motivators But as amazed at the people who were just motivated by things we say was shallow and extrinsical success money fame found incredible power in those two.

00:35:07: It probably motivates us all at some point, I just think it's such an interesting question and speaks to how different we are as well.

00:35:14: Well i mean if you're trying to raise over two decades like... You have to change things up but sometimes you can't maintain that same kind of drive!

00:35:22: And for me definitely when I started from humble beginnings what was looking forward?

00:35:29: a fancy car in the beginning?

00:35:31: Just kinda changed my stars financially then eventually Came to a realization.

00:35:37: that's you know, it's very fleeting and its.

00:35:40: It's something that ever was.

00:35:42: Did you have a reach?

00:35:43: did you ever reach?

00:35:45: Satisfaction during your career?

00:35:49: yes That's the good question because I think that's really the definition of all we really need to do every day.

00:35:55: but I mean the answer is Yeah, hi.

00:36:00: But actually think satisfaction came to be most in the middle Just ordinary training.

00:36:09: strangely enough I had a man satisfaction.

00:36:14: From going to bed every night and this is how i looked at it like have gone to bed tonight knowing that done all i can today to make myself the best athlete i can be and then i couldn't kind of go to bed happy and goodnight sleep in get up and do all over again, is super hard, you're training really hard.

00:36:33: You're tired all the time and always dealing with potential injuries or stressors like that.

00:36:38: but it's also different to almost everything else in life.

00:36:42: It's incredibly single-focused And can be so selfish at an expense of anything other than just saying not doing that I'm singly focused.

00:36:52: As humans actually we kind want a single focus.

00:36:55: The dealings are different things going on.

00:37:00: We find or i certainly fine, but I think most people are the same is kind of tough because you never know really how to How to um divvy up your energy in your efforts.

00:37:11: So I really I think enjoyed that was actually when as at my most content and yeah some racing related uh You know for a few days after After the Olympics or something?

00:37:23: But always moved on quite quickly after that and actually just I enjoyed the training and process more than anything.

00:37:32: Yeah, that is something i wish i hadn't realised earlier because you know when we got like in two thousand eight was sort of beginning your career on the olympic side.

00:37:46: for me it's pinnacle!

00:37:49: If you have an external goal, it's very finite.

00:38:00: Like... You kind of crush that dream by achieving it and I feel like you mastered the infinite game of, y'know?

00:38:09: The pursuit of excellence much earlier is what would probably be a difference between us reaching our second Olympics just maintaining dominance over such long time athletically.

00:38:24: What do you think would be a differentiating factor there?

00:38:29: Yeah, I don't know.

00:38:33: If he fast forwarded little bit as an athlete... It's the very lucky athlete and i dont' think it is actually possible to stop and sit down and think yeah!

00:38:45: I've done everything right ,I have achieved everything that I possibly wanted too And Im happy with my lot because that's a contradictory statement, if you're very good at stuff.

00:38:54: You always want to achieve more and um...you never are going to achieve everything you wanted to achieve.

00:38:59: so there has to be some level of uh kind of squaring off the circle.

00:39:08: I think i relatively early on did realise I'm putting in, and for some reason i did just enjoy the process right from the start.

00:39:17: I enjoyed working hard...I enjoyed my routine..I enjoyed trying to get better....I enjoyed experimenting and innovating.

00:39:25: trynna do more training or trying a new this or knew that?

00:39:28: um but i did realise at some point i don't entirely know when stood on a podium somewhere just thinking yeah all that work i put into this.

00:39:38: uh this moment three minutes and the podium is definitely not worth it.

00:39:45: There has to be more to it than this, so that was definitely part of it as well.

00:39:51: but I think the majority of that enjoyment came before then all actually just enjoying their process... And i've got no idea why!

00:40:04: Did you see that interview that Scotty Scheffler gave, the golfer?

00:40:08: Yeah.

00:40:08: Who was kind

00:40:09: of like yeah it's great.

00:40:10: and then for a minute okay what is for dinner?

00:40:14: It so relatable on some level.

00:40:19: I think every sports person realises at some point That minute time will never be enough to literally the thousand X of a time and effort you put into it.

00:40:35: Yeah, so in that sense how do you then go about goal setting?

00:40:42: Because goal-setting kind has to be I'm assuming tied to a sporting goal.

00:40:48: like you said you want to be twenty twelve Olympics or Rio or however were you quite structured As part of the process.

00:40:59: you need to write things out.

00:41:01: how did you go about your goal setting.

00:41:04: Yeah it was quite structured and i guess if he looked going into the limpet kind of era hours yes, yeah is all about that next game.

00:41:17: so you sit down in two thousand eleven or something.

00:41:22: Right, that's next year's goal.

00:41:24: How do I get to that?

00:41:25: You know what races don't want to do this year.

00:41:27: does that look at qualifying?

00:41:31: or the secondary goal might be trying win a world title in these races and that will mean they're qualified.

00:41:37: so yeah it was quite structured.

00:41:40: In that sense i guess their overarching goal is ultimately just wanted try and win The biggest racers because for me was like a proxy.

00:41:50: You know, I could go and be the best I can win a park run.

00:41:54: And that doesn't really work to me.

00:41:56: The Best I Could I had to race the best in trying at least shoot for the stars.

00:42:02: That's that motivation when i needed it.

00:42:06: So that was important.

00:42:07: But yeah structured.

00:42:08: but I think like We almost all known in sport you can write down and set those goals and then They are.

00:42:18: plan, you know the plan never goes to plan does?

00:42:22: Yeah, I mean that's probably helpful now because you don't have medals and podiums of the world to kind-of aim for.

00:42:31: How do you transition?

00:42:32: Like how about your goal setting now?

00:42:35: You're part of the IOC Athletes Commission or an entrepreneur...you've got a lot on your plate!

00:42:45: Taking it easy on myself.

00:42:47: I don't really set goals anymore, and just I just like go out at the moment is cut.

00:42:52: It's funny.

00:42:53: actually liked her to kind of not answer a question But also in answering different way.

00:42:59: Is that still notice?

00:43:00: Like I'd go out riding as up right this morning And it's like I've got you know some time sit off with A routine mind or whatever.

00:43:09: when i'm gonna Go out do couple hours then amount unlike Wait a minute, I could just go up that hill and do little bit more.

00:43:15: And you think why am i doing it?

00:43:19: What's the purpose of what they're aiming towards?

00:43:24: so yeah big part.

00:43:25: my goal is staying relatively fit and active.

00:43:29: another goal to tame down level activity obsession, I guess of trying to achieve those goals.

00:43:40: And the goal actually just to be as all round robust and healthy is possible?

00:43:45: That's my ultimate goal around health and robustness!

00:43:52: Then yeah...I have a bunch of things outside that in the rest of my life that keep me interested.

00:44:05: overarching goal of building another career actually outside of sport in something that interests me and inspires me In a similar, you know I don't think it's ever going to be quite as much As extreme is there.

00:44:18: but yeah?

00:44:19: Yeah.

00:44:19: I do want to build the career outside of support as well And not Well hundred percent sure what that looks like yet But i've seen myself in a period of kind of really cool experimentation opportunities.

00:44:30: Try to learn about it.

00:44:32: Yeah, I think that's definitely Definitely the case and I think it's Yeah, one of the big things.

00:44:39: I've noticed that if you notice this as well As like The only way to describe is kind of a headspace there space in your life You know people say Well you're only trained for five hours at day.

00:44:48: What did he do with the rest of time?

00:44:50: And i actually always did Do A little bit some other stuff but you just don't have the capacity right.

00:44:55: you Just knackered.

00:44:55: you just knackard.

00:44:56: Your focus are thinking about next session got to be.

00:45:02: And actually it's quite amazing, you know the amount of space as it were and that is a combination.

00:45:08: physical or mental energy I've found do other things has really surprised me.

00:45:14: Yeah absolutely!

00:45:15: If you think about if doing deep work fully concentrated without any distraction.

00:45:22: how many people can say they did five hours for one day?

00:45:27: people are running around and then there's this, that call.

00:45:29: And these kind of things.

00:45:30: but actual deep work or five hours is incredibly taxing whereas finding the concentration in capacity to be that concentrated so it could be switched on I think something most would actually have no idea about.

00:45:49: yeah you're probably right we'll see if either of us can put that drive into other thing

00:45:58: working on it, all right.

00:46:01: Let's go to your role in the IOC on the Athletes Commission and also through your charity.

00:46:10: You've done naturally as a byproduct of what you do is inspire a whole bunch of athletes.

00:46:15: take their next step.

00:46:21: where do put approach now?

00:46:25: Or are you really just trying to facilitate that kind of the federations and let the pathways or more lined out?

00:46:32: Or do actually go in, give advice to athletes as such.

00:46:38: Yeah I think thats a big question!

00:46:40: I like to frame almost everything that i do In terms of am I removing barriers for people doing more activity And performing better?

00:46:52: That's specifically very broad and covers some The I guess the business proper stuff that i do if you want to call it and almost everything outside there.

00:47:03: And so in terms of their foundation.

00:47:06: um yeah, I mean as a combination I guess have hands on actually helping organizing strategy going into some events.

00:47:13: five or six events this year handed up medals put kids onto bikes all those kind things.

00:47:20: So yeah, a combination of that.

00:47:21: But I'm not actually organizing events per se for some amazing people to do it at really cool team.

00:47:30: in terms the athletes commission with the IOC you know?

00:47:36: The Olympic movement is very important from big holistic perspective but also made massive role my life.

00:47:44: so i feel like there's responsibility to represent athletes.

00:47:49: at the heart of that is, it's an amazing privilege and responsibility.

00:47:54: And something I'm very happy and proud to do as a triathlete...I think we have other triathlites who definitely have like a niche sport complex don't we?

00:48:03: So yeah its good.

00:48:05: keep fighting for our place in the Olympic Games among others things.

00:48:11: Yeah i have advised and helped athletes.

00:48:15: I've kind of coached, helped Beth Potter up to her Olympics last year.

00:48:22: And that's something i just did.

00:48:23: for two or three years.

00:48:25: she came to me and said looker...I need to be on the edge not far off winning races.

00:48:32: She was doing all right world cup, how do I get a medal at Olympic Games?

00:48:36: And I said over three years.

00:48:38: you kinda need to do A B R C To her credit that you know, there's an incredibly disciplined and hard-working athlete which was just amazing to see.

00:48:49: she Did it and delivered.

00:48:52: Which is cool And I enjoyed being part of that.

00:48:55: but something else did purely for the love It took to help her out.

00:48:59: um i guess at them in a moment.

00:49:02: Yeah, i'm actually not too involved In The sport per se You Know.

00:49:07: obviously got loads of friends talk to people.

00:49:10: I go out training with some of the guys a little bit, although nowhere near as much that they used to obviously.

00:49:17: Although i can still live Johnny are kicking and thats what really matters in life.

00:49:21: so...

00:49:23: I have feeling its never going.

00:49:24: stop!

00:49:26: Poor guy!

00:49:27: We were racing the national gravel chance last weekend.

00:49:32: we both got dropped from front group basically for two hours was so miserable.

00:49:39: I just sensed that he was starting to struggle and all of a sudden it worked right off.

00:49:44: It was so funny, i went from trying to get around this thing thinking how am I going to beat him?

00:49:52: So that will never leave me but yeah it's a little bit of competition.

00:49:58: staying fit is important too

00:50:01: Calling on that mental library to make good instinctive decisions, right?

00:50:06: For Johnny has to bear a lifetime of the brunt of this.

00:50:12: Yeah it really does kind of Beg the question where I often think like is there something that you can train You know with The kind of champion gene.

00:50:23: Is it's something that he could train?

00:50:25: isn't something That you could work on?

00:50:27: yeah II've heard you speak about talent thats required to get the top in terms of genetic luck or lottery, as well as mental toughness.

00:50:43: Do you think there's a lot of luck?

00:50:45: Or how much can you influence?

00:50:47: it would say?

00:50:49: I think we could all influence everything.

00:50:53: nothing is pre-ordained at certain level all of our kind of different faculties, you know whether that is physiological aerobic engine your maximum capacity or maximum speed etc.

00:51:12: and then psychologically in terms like resilience and grit work ethic motivation although we have ceilings across these things the truth which are predetermined genetically to some extent.

00:51:26: The very course obvious example you or i was never going to win an olympic gold medal at a hundred meters right with all the training and science in the world.

00:51:35: it was just never gonna happen.

00:51:37: but we didn't try out one.

00:51:39: so there is a genetic component to that.

00:51:41: But I think, The truth is very rarely do any of us get close to that ceiling?

00:51:48: So really the question...the only question we can ask how close did we get our individual kind of component ceilings?

00:51:58: Most of us don't get that close.

00:51:59: You and I probably got closer than most other people, but we can all get closer.

00:52:05: And so yeah i think People can achieve amazing things.

00:52:11: I Think there's a talent in choosing what you want to go for?

00:52:14: We would have been wasted if went the hundred meter sprint Because never would've done anything.

00:52:22: So choose wisely then make sure your made it.

00:52:26: I think is how i look at it.

00:52:28: Yeah, love it.

00:52:29: couldn't agree more as the um.

00:52:31: are you musical?

00:52:32: At all?

00:52:34: uh not really know why.

00:52:37: All right come on if you had to compare your career To any musician or band who would it be and Why?

00:52:45: And If It Helps You i'll give you a couple of names just to say Would You Be More Like The Beatles?

00:52:52: like They revolutionized the scene, set a new standard inspired like whole generation.

00:52:56: The Rolling Stones gritty relentless always showing up when accounts David Bowie master of reinvention shifting through different eras and identities or the Oasis by two brothers raw fiery sometimes chaotic but unforgettable on big stage.

00:53:17: well This I feel like.

00:53:19: this is a very forced analogy, but i do quite like it to be fair.

00:53:22: and But yeah.

00:53:25: I mean It's somewhere the combination.

00:53:28: all those I went recently won't see oasis.

00:53:30: And if there is one pop band that I'm a fan of its Oasis To Be Fair.

00:53:35: so maybe I would like to be like them?

00:53:37: But I think we're probably along way from.

00:53:39: The truth was neither particularly a firebrand.

00:53:44: Thankfully, Johnny and me never had any public punt drops.

00:53:47: And we haven't yet.

00:53:50: but maybe there is one forced analogy that definitely much better as karma.

00:53:55: fifty odd rolls now than they were twenty years ago.

00:53:58: so maybe it's going to be a second coming in ten year time

00:54:03: aging like uh...like good wine yeah I just think kind of fits with the whole fearless racing And also, yeah the passion you brought to it.

00:54:17: All right closing question looking back which moment if You can think of one?

00:54:26: Of going mental defined you the most and The One that would carry you today?

00:54:32: is there any anything That comes to mind

00:54:36: in terms of what as like a positive or negative Or something that was kind of turning point?

00:54:41: or whats the context?

00:54:44: I mean, that's the whole thing right?

00:54:45: Going mental can mean many things.

00:54:48: It could be kind of going absolutely stir crazy but it also just something.

00:54:53: a moment made you reflect

00:54:55: on

00:54:56: realising how precious your time is as an athlete and then you've got few days left to make everyone count which i feel like one underlying spirit in my career.

00:55:07: Is there someone who stands out for me where Moment that you would say meant to change do or changed your path?

00:55:20: Maybe didn't change my path, but the most significant was that I Was running into it maybe two kilometers from the end in Rio and in the Olympics in Rio.

00:55:31: I was running along knowing that had won the race And as like can you remember because I always thought back of going back, you know a conversation about standing on the podium.

00:55:40: Can you remember running down the last few hundred meters of The Olympics in London?

00:55:45: How many of those last few-hundred metres or minutes of a race can you remember at it

00:55:49: now?".

00:55:49: I was like...I can't!

00:55:50: Like little flashes of seeing someone on the side that course.

00:55:53: but yeah this is probably gonna be some real greatest moment.

00:55:57: so i actually had the presence of mind to think This will never happen again.

00:56:01: You don't remember from much time.

00:56:04: You should remember this and take it in.

00:56:07: And yeah, I think that was a really important moment because Yeah It wasn't worth all the training heartache everything went into but they did actually go quite along way.

00:56:20: Alister thanks a lot.

00:56:22: Thanks for your time.

00:56:23: Thanks what two decades of rivalry?

00:56:27: And look forward to hopefully over the next few decades sharing The odd adventure out on a bike or wherever maybe.

00:56:34: I really appreciate you taking

00:56:35: the time

00:56:36: mate.

00:56:37: Thanks a lot, thanks for having

00:56:58: me!